User talk:Ahasuerus/Archive/2006

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Grendelkhan promoted to sysop

I've promoted User:Grendelkhan to sysop. He's been doing ISFDB-related work on Wikipedia for a long time, including creating the ISFDB templates that we know and love. He's been cleaning up edition information in Wikipedia lately, so this should let him get that edition information into the ISFDB. Alvonruff 17:46, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

Hello, and (of course) a few questions.

I figured I'd drop the content-editing questions to you, and the design ones to Al, for now. So far:

  • I don't see any way to merge author data. For instance, Darrell Sweet should be merged with Darrell K. Sweet, but I don't see a way to merge records or add pseudonyms to an author record.
  • When books are noted as "library binding", do we use 'lb' as the format, or just consider it a hardcover ('hc')?

Thanks! grendel|khan 12:42, 16 May 2006 (CDT)


There's a method to deal with translators on a per-title basis, but usually translated editions aren't added as new titles. See the other publications for Starman Jones, which are sometimes translations.

The Czech edition I just found (which apparently doesn't have a translated title, according to WorldCat), see publication record STRMNJNSBV1996) has a translator noted in the notes for now; let me know if that sort of thing should be split off into separate title records--that doesn't seem like the right thing to do. grendel|khan 17:48, 16 May 2006 (CDT)

Old Ace paperbacks

I have an old Ace copy of The Star Beast. I've entered the information about it here, but have not at this point committed the changes. This cover is noted as belonging to a "1970s" series here, but the frontispiece only says "Copyright, (c), 1954, by Robert A. Heinlein", and that's the only date I can find anywhere on it. It's Ace #78000, and has (of course) no ISBN. Is this the most precise data I'm going to be able to get? grendel|khan 00:28, 17 May 2006 (CDT)

Budrys minor change

I just changed the price on the Gold Medal first edition of Rogue Moon to 45 cents (from 35 cents). I have a copy, and that's what it says on it, so I went ahead and made the change, and then figured out how to moderate it. That raised a couple of questions:

  • Is there a way to see the history of changes on e.g. a publication like this? I.e. is there a page where I can see what's been edited on a given publication?
  • I saw you had created an "Author:C. S. Lewis" page for biblio notes on Lewis. Should I create one for Budrys and record my changes?
  • Is there a way yet to create a new magazine? E.g. I have quite a few copies of "The Original Science Fiction Stories", which isn't in the DB. Is there a way to enter them?

Thanks. Mike Christie 23:47, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

new entries

I just came across this:

There is no article attached yet and I have been in the isfdb for years.

I would very much like to post my bibliography since you've already put my name in. However, I am concerned that this might not be an appropriate action to take. Could someone suggest to me whether I should or not?

Vacuum tubes

Hope the vacuum tubes settle in and function well. Have you considered replacing them all with transistors? Anyway, see you back here soon. Mike Christie 07:58, 22 Jun 2006 (CDT)

Welcome template

Hi -- just thought I'd mention that I changed the welcome template you just added to be {{subst:welcome}}. I know Wikipedia does this to reduce server load. I doubt that's an issue here, though maybe it will be one day, but I thought it was good precedent. Hope your wrist is better -- Mike Christie 06:39, 7 Jul 2006 (CDT)


Hi Ahasuerus and thanks for the welcome - but I've been lurking and using the ISFDB for years now. I doubt that you can get me to stop! BTW, is there any process for me to submit suggested data updates while we're waiting for the official update capabilities? For example, I have a marked up copy of the Mercedes Lackey long works bibliography that I could send. (I've been waiting for that update capability for a long time now.) PortForlorn 01:05, 14 Oct 2006 (CDT)

Editing Mercedes Lackey

I'd love the opportunity to help out and I'd like to start with some "fix-ups" for M.Lackey's biblio. Not only will I avoid radical changes like mass-uploading XML submissions like the plague, I intend to limit any changes to simple edits like title merging, series membership and spelling corrections until we both I agree I understand the system and what I'm doing well enough to avoid damage, e.g., no changing authors' cannonical names, no attempting to twiddle MySQL bits directly, no defenestration of any user, no contradicting the opinions of Al, you or any other moderator, no run-on sentences in my posts (mostly?), etc.

Although, if you do decide to authorize moderator status for me, I may have to start visiting the ISFDB site more often than the 2-3 times a week I've been accustomed to. This won't impact the loading on the servers too much, will it?? --PortForlorn 12:07, 17 Oct 2006 (CDT)

Newbie FAQ about (data) bugreports


nice to see you again (I remember you from rasf* years back when I had the time to browse it; and you even read a post of mine once ;-) Apologies if I'm doing something wrong: I'm a newbie to this wiki - though not perusing ISFDB itself - and despite trying to read the help, I am still rather confused. That is, what do I do when I find an error in the data (which, sadly, are still quite frequent?) How, where or to whom do I report it - and should I even bother with it, or is there no proper system in place to handle these efficiently except a few overworked developers, and is it better to wait? (But at leats coming up with a wiki seems promising; years ago, when I tried to use the built-in "send corrections" feature or even e-mail Al von Ruff, nothing ever came out of that. Anyway:)

The latest case I came across was (hm, shouldn't the ISFDB templates from Wikipedia be copied also here?). It lists three novels, the last being - The Wild Swan (2001, Warner Aspect, 0446608475, $6.99, 450pp, pb). This is obviously a typo/oversight/whatever for the mass-market edition of her 1999 hardback The Wild Swans - see any of links at (so that I don't give a preferential treatment Amazon to by a direct link).

I'd be happy to report the errors found in any way and format required; I don't look things up on IMDB as often as I used to, and don't have much spare time, but I have this terrible wiki mentality...

Thanks, --JVjr 09:05, 1 Nov 2006 (CST)


That's quite a collection you have there. I'd love to hear more about it -- are you a hardback collector, a magazine collector, a magpie? Mike Christie 13:06, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)

I am probably more of a "text collector" than anything else :) I care more about the words between the covers than the covers themselves. Naturally, durable hardcovers are more desirable than the old substandard SFBC volumes (they have gotten better since), not to mention flimsy Zebra paperbacks, but I am generally unwilling to pay (much) more for a first edition than for a decent hardcover reprint. Magazine appearances are a different story, though. Not only do pulps have a charm all their own, but magazines often contain interesting editorials, letters and ephemera that are unavailable elsewhere. Plus the fact that many stories, including some decent ones, are yet to be reprinted in book form. Ahasuerus 18:56, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)
I used to collect mostly paperbacks, but have gradually accumulated a few rare hardbacks, and wouldn't mind picking up more. I particularly like the old pre-1960 paperbacks. I have a full set of the SF Ace doubles, and would like to get all the pre-1960 sf from all different publishers. The tragic curse of completism, as a friend once described it. Mike Christie 19:24, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)
There is nothing wrong with completism -- the real problem is that there are only 24 hours in the day! :( Ahasuerus 20:00, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)

I have around 10,000 volumes myself; I had to get rid of a couple of thousand for lack of space, and I dumped British reprint magazines, and a lot of reprint anthologies. Mike Christie 13:06, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)

I have a lot more than just SF/F in my collection and I do purge it periodically as my interests change -- a fact that some of the largest libraries in this country have been known to benefit from :) Ahasuerus 18:56, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)
I see -- I thought you had 20K SF/F. Our collections are probably quite similar, then; I have at least 5,000 non-SF as well. Mike Christie 19:24, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)
Oh, I have about 20K SF/F all right. Non-SF (from Carlyle to Wodehouse to Trotsky to Keeler) is above and beyond :) Ahasuerus 20:00, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)

Now I mostly specialize in magazines; I don't have the April 26 Amazing, but I do have the Jan 30 Astounding, and am missing about five Street & Smiths and maybe ten Claytons to have a complete run. I'm close to having a complete run of everything from 1950 on, though I do have a few gaps, maybe a couple of hundred missing issues total. How about you? Mike Christie 13:06, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)

My magazine collection is somewhat messy and I haven't updated it in many years. Still, I do have complete runs of S&S Astounding (missing a number of Claytons), Startling Stories, Thrilling Wonder Stories (some gaps before it became Thrilling), Unknown, Fantastic Adventures, Planet Stories, Fantastic Story and other major pulps of the day. The biggest exception is Amazing, with over 40 issues missing in the late 1920s-early 1930s and during the war years (I blame ERB!). Also, I have very few Weird Tales since it's not my cup of tea. OTOH, I have Marvel Stories, Astonishing, Cosmic, and other minor pulps from the 1930s and 1940s (a couple of gaps in Strange Tales and other obscure areas) as well as 100% of the major and 90% of the minor 1950s-1970s digests (I am not paying $200 or whatever it is these days for Twenty Million Miles to Earth as a matter of principle!).
That's a good set of magazines to have. Like you, I have very few Weird Tales. My Amazing coverage is also very weak; much more so than yours -- I have only a couple of dozen before about 1945. But I do have more than half-runs of Unknown, Planet, Startling, Fantastic Adventures, and quite a few of the others. Mike Christie 19:24, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)
UK and other non-US pulps and digests are a different story, though. Even major titles like New Worlds, Authentic Science Fiction Monthly, Science Fantasy and Nebula are sadly incomplete and I am lucky if I have 50% of Science Fiction Fortnightly and such. I guess we will need help from other editors when it comes to entering British magazines... Ahasuerus 18:56, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)
Actually I can help there; I have full runs of Nebula and Science Fantasy, and am only missing a couple of Authentics and half a dozen New Worlds. I also have several Tales of Wonder, and all three of the pre-war Fantasys. I was wondering what I should work on after completing the Fantastic Universe run; I could do Astounding verifications, but I think it would be more sensible to pick something fairly rare and enter it -- maybe fill out the gaps in New Worlds. Mike Christie 19:24, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)
That's exactly what I was doing ca. 1996 -- filling ISFDB magazine lacunae and adding obscure magazines (e.g. Magazine:Uncanny_Stories) that other editors may not have ready access to. At some point, we will probably want to have a matrix with "who has what" information. For example, I have Miracle Science and Fantasy #1, but not #2; Satellite Science Fiction 1956-1958, but not the rare 1959 issues; etc. Ahasuerus 20:00, 9 Nov 2006 (CST)

Dropped text

Ahasuerus, I'm at work and too busy to really look, but it appears some text got dropped in Grendelkhan's edit of the Community Portal. Take a look at the history. The diff looks ok but the diff text is not in the page. Maybe this is the Google toolbar bug? Anyway, if you could take a look that would be great. Otherwise I'll see if I can fix it up tonight. Mike Christie 13:25, 20 Nov 2006 (CST)

Bug 10009

Can you still reproduce bug 10009? I just started looking at the showstopper list, to see if I agreed with it, and I can't make it happen. Can you? Maybe Al's already fixed it. Mike Christie 18:53, 7 Dec 2006 (CST)

Magazine to-do template

Sounds like a good idea. Which magazines would we put it on? Ones that are actively being worked on? Putting it on everything seems a bit much; maybe we just make the template available so that projects that get going can use it? I was thinking we could do the same with author projects -- take the layout I drafted at Author:Robert A. Heinlein and make it a template to serve as a starter set of tasks for author projects.

Of course, if you're right that we won't get very author-focused editors, then that may not be necessary or even helpful. I do think some sorts of work are going to need some author-focused efforts, though. For example, I was looking at the Lathe of Heaven publications, having just entered three of them. One is a 12th printing, and I am pretty sure there's going to be no way to get good dates on all 12 without looking at things like prices, ISBN sequences compared with datable other editions from that publisher, information deducible from what's advertised in the books, and so on. I think that will take communication between multiple interested parties, because no one editor is going to have all twelve of those books.

Anyway, the template is good idea regardless, so I'd say go ahead. Mike Christie (talk) 18:00, 17 Dec 2006 (CST)

Newby problem

I've been trying to add stuff to my bibliography but it seems to require moderator access. At least, that's the message. "Holding Pattern", Steven Popkes, July 2006, F&SF. stevep 09:42, 21 Dec 2006 (CST)

Date issue

Thanks for the note about the date issue. That's one's going to be tricky to remember so I'll stick to just entering a year where relevant.

Any reason you didn't go for the international standard YYYY-MM-DD?

--Unapersson 11:40, 22 Dec 2006 (CST)

Internal consistency

Ahasuerus, from time to time you add a line to an author's bibliographic notes that says “Internal consistency pass completed.” Could these link to a page that explains what steps are being taken to determine or make an author's bibliography internally consistent? Thanks. Marc Kupper 16:14, 23 Dec 2006 (CST)

Hayford Peirce entries

Hi, you're right, the $16 book is a trade paperback -- I hadn't realized there was a different entry for that. And the Italian edition gave me pause: it's the *size* of an Analog, say, but I always thought of it as being a paperback edition. It is, however, printed in 2 columns, and is clearly a magazine format, but one devoted solely to this book. I guess that "digess" is the proper terminology. And thanks for correcting the Russian gobbledygook -- I copied it over from the Wikipedia entry.... Hayford Peirce 14:27, 25 Dec 2006 (CST)

Dave Alexander

Curiously enough, I just looked at that a few minutes ago. Dave's full name is David M. Alexander. For reasons that escape me, the last story we published together in Analog omitted the "M." from his name -- I have just verified this from my actual copy of the magazine. Whether it was a production error or Dave decided he didn't want the "M." I dunno. And yes, there *are* two David Alexanders. One is "mine", the other is a guy who has written some Star Trek books, I believe, and maybe some other S.F. I'll check out the David M. Alexander entry again, but I believe that it is accurate as it stands right now. Hayford Peirce 15:07, 25 Dec 2006 (CST)

Okay, I give up! I've been to the "David Alexander" article, the one for the guy who died in 1973, where "Elephant's Graveyard" is listed with me being a co-author. No matter what I do, I can't delete it from *his* article. I'm afraid if I take more drastic steps, it will vanish from the database entirely. Is there any way we can show it, say, in my article and David M. Alexander's article as being by Dave M., even though it wasn't published that way?
David M. Alexander's article looks OK to me. But the David Alexander article is obviously screwed up -- here's a guy born in 1907 who dies in 1973 and yet who has dozens of things published in the 80s and 90s. The Star Trek guy is David Alexander Smith -- whether he ever published under "David Alexander" I don't know. I know that Dave M. was initially taken aback when he discovered the existence of D.A. Smith, mainly because he discovered that many people considered DAS a pain in the ass, hehe, and my Dave felt he was being discriminated against because of the confusion. One more reason why he's now trying to publish as "David Grace". Hayford Peirce 15:39, 25 Dec 2006 (CST)
Good, you're aware of the problems, then. And I now understand why at least some of them can't be fixed at the moment. But good grief! *Another* David Alexander?! This is going to be a very tangled web to unravel! Hayford Peirce 15:42, 25 Dec 2006 (CST)
I just looked in Hubin's "Crime Fiction" and he lists the 1907 guy as having written a number of mysteries, plus one entry for "my" Dave A. I'll call mine later tonight or tomorrow and find out if he *ever* published anything with the middle M. initial.... Hayford Peirce 19:22, 25 Dec 2006 (CST)

Finder's Fee

I've just checked my 1997 Analog and *that* story was *also* published as by "David Alexander" rather than "David M. Alexander". That leads me to believe that Dave made a conscious decision not to include the "M." And I now also see that his non-S.F. novel, "My Real Name Is Lisa" also omits the "M.". I don't have copies of his two earlier novels, so I don't know how they were published.... Hayford Peirce 15:49, 25 Dec 2006 (CST)

Thanks for all the new info you've inserted into my page, I dunno how. It all looks pretty good to me except for a couple of tiny things that I've just tried to fix, whether I succeeded or not, or only screwed things up more, I dunno.
"...With the Bathwater" was first published by AHMM as " "Untitled" ", at least that's what it said on the cover. Inside, it was called Untitled, with no quotation marks around it. Very mysterious. I sent it in without a title (just calling it Untitled) because I couldn't think of one, expecting that the editor would think of one. To my astonishment it was the cover story -- as "Untitled"! Verra verra strange.... I renamed it "...With the Bathwater" for its book publication.
I'm trying to get everything I wrote with Dave Alexander to show *his* name first and mine second, the way they were when published.
I'm pretty sure that the dates I've given for the various Wildside books are the only ones shown in the books themselves -- ie, just the year, with no months. This has led to a *little* confusion in one case, in which the book is shown as having a copyright of 2001 and the last story in it, unpublished until then, is shown as having a copyright of 2002. I'll check on this, if you'd like to know which one it is, and let you know. Hayford Peirce 14:24, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)

Bug fixed

Yes, I had seen just a little while ago that the double entries had disappeared -- as you say, he sure knows what he's doing! Now if some August Bibliographer can eventually make sense of the Dave Alexanders mishmash.... I'll let you know what Dave M. says about his middle initial. Hayford Peirce 21:20, 25 Dec 2006 (CST)

Multiple cover artists

Sorry for the slow reply, my internet connection went flaky last night and has only just recovered.

The multiple artists for Firestarter and '48 are all for the cover. For Firestarter:

Jacket photograph: Oliver Hunter, Jacket Design: Anne Davison

for '48:

Jacket images: fire details (C) Tony Stone Images, back (C) Hulton Getty Collection, figures by Slatter-Anderson and David Scutt --Unapersson 10:45, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)

Finder's Fee publication info in Analog

Yes, I was trying to get it to show as it was when published: Finder's Fee by David Alexander and Hayford Peirce. At the time, Dave thought that my name should come first because I was more prominent and had arguably contributed more to the story. I insisted on his name coming first because I thought "Alexander and Peirce" sounded better, just the way "Nordoff and Hall" sounds better than the other way around. As I said earlier, all three of our Analog stories were published that way, so, I guess, you should change the original Analog entries for at least two of these stories. Hayford Peirce 16:27, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)

Yes, Best of Breed is NOT a Howe story but a stand-alone. I just checked my article and it is still showing:
Isaiah Howe
Finder's Fee (1997) [SF] with David M. Alexander [as by Hayford Peirce and David Alexander ]
Elephants' Graveyard (1999) [SF] with David M. Alexander [as by David Alexander and Hayford Peirce ]
And Best of Breed is still showing Peirce and Alexander rather than the other way around.
Best, Hayford Peirce 16:25, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)
Ah, now I understand! In a sense it's a very minor concern; on the other hand, since you people have been so devastatingly thorough up to this point (and I myself am certainly a guy who has had trouble with girlfriends over the years on the "if it's worth doing at all, it's worth doing 100% right" issue), it would be nice if eventually this could be straightened out. After all, suppose an unknown Nordhoff and Hall SF or fantasy story turned up in Tahiti in an old storage shed (hmmm, idea for a possible story of my own!), and someone mistakenly typed in their names out of order? Then you'd have "The Masked Mahi-mahi" by Hall and Nordhoff! Hayford Peirce 16:55, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)
Yes, that would be devastating indeed! :) I have added your comments to our discussion of Requested Feature 90064 (, so perhaps it might get done sooner rather than later. Keep in mind, though, that co-author ordering may be changed by publisher/editors on subsequent reprints, so we would have to capture this data for each edition/appearance, and that could get messy :(
Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that. On the other hand, do Dynamic Duos ever get changed? I can't remember if it's Pohl and Kornbluth or vice versa, but isn't that pretty standardized? On the other hand, a couple of no-names could indeed, I suppose, have their names switched around. A bibliographer's lot is not a happy one!
Another question about your biblio: I noticed that you changed Aliens from a Novel to a Collection at 8:40am MT. I see the book listed on Amazon, but it has little data aside from a brief excerpt while Locus and the other usual suspects apparently missed it altogether. Do you happen to have the contents handy so that we could update the ISFDB?
Here's my own list at Amazon, with comments by me on each book: It is a collection of stories -- I will give you a complete list in a little while: essentially, it and With a Bang finish collecting everything I've ever written that wasn't included in one of the series collections.
And on an unrelated note, you wouldn't happen to be related to Hayford Peirce (1883-1946), the art historian who was active between the wars?
Yup, that's my father, I'm actually a Jr. He died very suddenly when I was four, the only one in the family to ever die at sort of a nondescript age; all the others lived forever or died young. He was the older brother of Waldo Peirce, the painter, about whom there is a Wiki article. You're about the first person I've ever run into who knows about him -- are you a Byzan. fan? He also gave old coins and things to both Dumbarton Oaks and the Fogg Museum -- or rather my mother did, in later years. Best, Hayford Peirce 19:02, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)
Interesting about him turning up still -- I see his name in Google searches from time to time. And interesting also about the early Napoleon Disentimed version! No, Judge, I never read that book before writing my own!Hayford Peirce 22:49, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)

"Aliens" -- content info

In the order in which they appear: High-Yield Bondage; Best of Breed "with David M. Alexander"; The Next Step (first publication); Finder's Fee "with David M. Alexander"; Hearing (first publication); The Aliens Among Us (first publication); Elephant's Graveyard "with David M. Alexander"; I, Genocide (first publication) -- hope this is enough info for you; if you need anything more, give a holler. (This may actually be the only time that Dave Alexander has published stuff with the middle M. -- I'm gonna call him in an hour or so and I'll see if I can get definitive answers for you on all his works.) Hayford Peirce 19:48, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)

It's "Elephants' Graveyard" in both the book and in Analog -- I may have mistyped it at some point in our correspondence.Hayford Peirce 22:49, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)

Dave Alexander biblio forthcoming

I talked to Dave a moment ago. His first two novels, The Chocolate Soldier, which would be called a techno-thriller today, and Fane, a Jack Vancian fantasy, were both published as by "David M. Alexander". Tomorrow he is going to email me an updated bibliography of everything he has written, paying particular attention to the points that we have been discussing. If you'll give me your email address, I'll just forward it along to you, which ought to save us a bunch of work. Best, Hayford Peirce 22:49, 26 Dec 2006 (CST)

Merging the two "Burrs"

Thanks for all the info on what to do. I've printed it up and am keeping it on my desk to refer to. I tried an initial merge but only succeeded in eliminating the book from the Series. I've gone back and done something else that I hope will restore it, then I will try doing the reverse of what I first did. I gotta say, it ain't very intuitive to be confronted with those circles to check or uncheck in the Conflict area, at least not for me, since I don't know what checking or unchecking will do. Oh, well, I'll get it eventually -- if the long-suffering Marc keeps approving my edits so that they show up and I can see the end result. And yes, re Dave Alex, it's a curse, I suppose, how misinformation can now enter the entire World's database and then go on eternally. I had an email discussion about this the other day with the Obits editor of the New York Times after I had corrected some misinformation that they ran about an old-time tennis player. It took them about a week to run a correction (in spite of my on-going admonitions) and during that time this mis-info turned up in Wiki and all its mirror sites. It may *never* be corrected in some spots.... Hayford Peirce 21:55, 27 Dec 2006 (CST)

Series numbering

I see that in my MacNair series the two books there were numbered (1) and (2), which, of course is perfectly logical. I later looked at the Arthur C. Clarke article and under *his* Series the books for Rama, for instance, are NOT numbered. Is there a coherent, consistent policy here or am I missing something important? Or maybe the editor who put in the Clarke books simply didn't bother to number them? Hayford Peirce 21:58, 27 Dec 2006 (CST)

Now to start sorting out the David Alexanders confusion

I see that I successfully managed to get all the appropriate entries for "my" Dave Alexander showing "as by David Alexander", so I think his biblio. is essentially finished and correct. Now the key thing is: how do we (you, I, anyone) fix the link that exists when you click on "David Alexander" in the "David M. Alexander" biblio and get taken away to the page of the *other* guy, the one who writes military stuff? If you can figure out how to do it, and tell me how, I'll see what I can do.... Hayford Peirce 16:15, 28 Dec 2006 (CST)

"Notes" -> "Comments"

Good point about changing all occurrences of "Bibliogaphic Notes" to "Bibliographic Comments"! I meant to do it earlier today, but ran out of time. Ahasuerus 01:50, 31 Dec 2006 (CST)

You are welcome Ahasuerus - I saw the "Notes" -> "Comments" correction you had done and realized there much be a bunch of them out there. That lead me to learning that the wiki's search does not support phrases (something that's much lamented about but not fixed over on the wikipedia). I also learned that the wiki search is based on some sort of index thing that apparently can go for months (?) without getting updated. I ended up using Google but will need to set up a reminder to check with Google again in a couple of weeks after they have re-indexed the site as it may have missed some recent "bibliographic notes" additions. Marc Kupper 18:03, 31 Dec 2006 (CST)