R&S Example page/Inclusion of Non-genre works reviewed by Genre Magazines

There seems to be a conflict between the documented ROA and our current practice. To be specific, in what cases, if any, should publications otherwise OUT by recorded because they were reviewed in Genre magazines. There are several cases which we seem to treat differently:

1. Movies and TV shows

   These are apparently never indexed, and reviews of them are most often entered as essays if entered at all.

2. Graphic novels / Comics

   These seem often to be entered as reviews, but the publications are not recorded, leaving "dead-end" reviews.

   Example The Bank Street Books of Science Fiction, Fantasy, Creepy Tales, and Mystery

3. More or less popular Science-fact books

   These seem often, but not always, to be recorded as publications. Sometimes they are left as "dead-end" reviews.

   Example: Review of: The Planet Jupiter and The Planet Jupiter

4. Fiction that is not SF, by authors not "over the threshold"

   These are often entered as reviews, and at least sometimes the work reviewed has publications recorded

   Example Review of: People of Darkness and People of Darkness

   Counter-example: Review of: In High Places (by Arthur Hailey)

First of all, have I correctly described our current practice, or are my example exceptional cases? Secondly, is that how we want to act? Cases 3 & 4 above seem to be excluded by ROA #10 -- do we want to add an exception for works reviewed in Genre publications?

I encountered these cases in looking at ISFDB:Authors that only exist due to reviews, and it would be nice to have clearer guidance for when one should find and enter the reviewed book, when one should just leave a dead end review, and when one should convert a review to an essay. -DES ^Talk 15:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

With #3 I suspect the book got linked up as the author has a crater on the moon named after him. Surely we need to add "If the author has an exo-Earth geographic or astronomical feature named after him or her then his or her works merit automatic inclusion" to ROI :-) Seriously, I have no idea why that book got linked up though it being an astronomy book helped. --Marc Kupper|talk 18:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

But I have seen a fair number of these. I know that some people really dislike having a review of a non-listed work. And I know that for a while, Analog in particular tended to review a lot of pop science books. Has that been seen as justification for including such books? should it be? -DES ^Talk 20:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

With #4 some of the variation is likely because the editor may not be certain if the reviewed work is specfict. This is likely why People of Darkness got added. It was entered as a novel. It turns out to have a WP page, looks non-genre, and so I changed that title but I'm not certain enough of non-genre to delete the pubs much less the title record.--Marc Kupper|talk 18:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I own a copy and have read it more than once. It is a mystery, with absolutely no supernatural elements. It was on that basis that I deleted almost all of Hillerman's wok here (we had a fairly complete bibliography). I left this one alone because of the review, and i think someone else suggested that I do so when i proposed deleting his other work, although i can't find that interaction. See ISFDB:Help desk#Tony Hillerman. -DES ^Talk 20:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I have deleted People of Darkness leaving just one Tony Hillerman work which may be a children's talking animal story and thus out.

Title: People of Darkness

Author: Tony Hillerman

Year: 1980

Type: NONGENRE

Wikipedia Entry: People of Darkness

• People of Darkness, (1990, Tony Hillerman, Recorded Books, Inc., B000CBEJCM, audio cassette)
• People of Darkness, (Jan 1991, Tony Hillerman, HarperPaperbacks, 0-06-109915-5, $5.95, 293pp, pb) Cover: Peter Thorpe
• People of Darkness, (Oct 2004, Tony Hillerman, HarperTorch, 0-06-109915-5, $7.99, 304pp, tp) --Marc Kupper|talk 23:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The easy way out is to add an ROA that allows for including works where the editor is not certain if it's specfic. Ideally these get tagged with something like "genre-uncertain" and that as people review/research the record that they can add notes. (Wiki notes for titles would be great here but the coding to add this is a big undertaking). --Marc Kupper|talk 18:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not worried about including things where the author is unsure. I think "Inclusionist bias" covers that. My question is "Is a review in an SF mag a good reason to include things clearly known not to be SF. and which have no reason for inclusion except the review?" The ROA currently says no, but we seem at least sometimes to act as if it were "yes". -DES ^Talk 20:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Many of those science books, at least from the 50, had a great deal of influence on the fiction and were quite often reviewed in multiple pubs. Of more recent vintage, someone like Stephen Hawking seems to me be a person of interest to the s-f community. Hard to figure where to draw the line but the mere fact that they reviewed in s-f mags should lean many of them towards being in. I would think that most Hard S-F fans opt to include all such reviews.--swfritter 20:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

To be clear, I am not objecting to these science books being in. I am asking if in dealing with "authors included only due to reviews" it is acceptable to find the book (say in OCLC) and create the pub record, or if this would be a mistake. I am also suggesting that if it is OK to do that, an explicit statement to that effect in the ROA would be a good idea. After all the help and policy pages exist to document what we do or want to do, not to be a set of unchangeable laws to restrict us. -DES ^Talk 20:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

One trouble is that it's a little tricky to create a title record without a publication. It can be done using the make-variant-title system but for most people it's simpler to enter the publication being reviewed or something similar. --Marc Kupper|talk 09:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I was assuming that recording the title involved recording at least one pub -- title records with no pubs didn't occur to me. -DES ^Talk 13:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

For Mods, entering a pub to create the title and then removing the pub works, but I dislike dead ends so would appreciate at least a note on the title as to why there are no pubs and none should be added. The Author pages with no links anywhere were the reason I worked on "Authors that only exist due to reviews" and adding the "Reviewed Author" Search: but those are just examples of the problem and a tool to help fix them, not a prescriptive solution. BLongley 19:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Me thinks this is an incorrect tangent. I think above when someone said 'enter the title' they meant as a normal publication/title pair, and just made an unfortunate word choice. Kevin 21:34, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

There are possibly other problems with Review Columns (of various types: Film, TV, Magazine, Fanzine, even Music) being entered as essays with differing detail - I have seen some "Mutant Popcorn" entries for instance that add the reviewed titles to the Essay title, and others that don't even distinguish which magazine the column is in (and if you're not going to add any more detail, why should you? Merge the lot if you like). BLongley 19:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

In the example categories, TV/Film reviews are not wanted as reviews, IMO - essay will do. I'd prefer comic reviews not to be entered as reviews, but as essays, if at all. Reviews of graphic novels only if we have the graphic novel (separate can of worms there), otherwise essay or omission please. I don't mind reviewed Science Books or reviewed Non-genre books (these are supposed to be Book reviews after all) but as I don't enter magazines from primary sources much I'm happy to let those that do decide what they want in the magazines, just don't leave dead links please. BLongley 19:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

To clearly answer DES's Question. - Yes. Please enter the book. For Non-Fiction I also often enter the original Hardcover edition, and then the first 'cheap' edition. I find that if a non-fic book was released in 1962, with a paperback version in 1968... all/most of the reviews are usually dated in 68 and 69. I think it appropriate to both record the edition reviewed, and the original edition. Most things in between and after these two editions I ignore. Kevin 21:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

For example, Today i entered Neo-opsis Science Fiction Magazine, Issue #1, It contains two book reviews, entered as such, one of "The Nitpicker's Guide for X-Philes by Phil Farrand" (a book about the TV show "X-Files") and "The Demon in the Freezer by Richard Preston" (a non-fiction book, apparently about the possibilities of Bio-war). I found both in OCLC and noted their ISBNs in the review record. I take it from the above that creating a publication record (and thus a title record also) for at least one edition of each of these would be approved? If so, would people approve an addition to the ROA explicitly saying this? -DES ^Talk 22:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like we have consensus re: not creating pub-less Titles if we are going to create these Titles at all.

As far as the value of entering this information goes, it's been my experience that it varies from magazine to magazine and from era to era. Sometimes an early and highly obscure book on rocketry gets reviewed (complete with otherwise unavailable publication details), which seems quite valuable, while other times something completely unrelated and seemingly worthless gets reviewed. Overall, considering the value of some of these Titles, the fact that we have already entered a fair number of them and the fact that they represent a fraction of the total number of Reviews, I think we might as well bite the bullet and add them to the ROA. It will also eliminate many dead end review records and make the perfectionist in us happy :) Ahasuerus 02:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

While it may need adding to the ROA for clarity, it is already documented in Help New Pub which states "Non-sf works should be entered but if an onerous number of non-sf-related works are reviewed in a column you are entering, discuss the situation on the Bibliographic Rules page to decide what can be eliminated." I also recommend that the onerous discussion be removed or shortened in the rule. Kevin 03:26, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I read that as saying that the reviews should be entered even if of non-SF books. I don't take that to discuss entering records for the books themselves. The context seems to me pretty clear that it is discussing which reviews should be entered and which not. -DES ^Talk 14:55, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I propose the following addition to the ROA, baased on the above discussion:

"IN: Nonfiction or non-genre fiction books that have been reviewed in a professional or semi-pro genre fiction magazine (not a fanzine)."

Does anyone object or want to suggest other wording? -DES ^Talk 14:55, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Graphic novels in book form? They were briefly mentioned in the discussion above. Having such titles in our system could act as an inducement for editors to add more if they are not aware that some are there only because they have been reviewed. That is also true of the other categories too but it is my impression that there has been substantially more abuse in the graphic novels category. I don't mind reviewed graphic novels being in the system but it might make life a little harder for moderators.--swfritter 16:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I might suggest webzines (at least the ones we call 'in') fall into semi-prozine and should be called out as acceptable sources of reviews for inclusion, since we are calling out fanzines as not acceptable (Due to the higher percentage of 'stuff'?) source. Kevin 17:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

How about:

"IN: Nonfiction or non-genre fiction books (not including graphic novels) that have been reviewed in a professional or semi-pro genre fiction magazine, including an electronic magazine being indexed by the ISFDB, but not a fanzine."

or if GNs are to be included:

"IN: Nonfiction or non-genre fiction books (including graphic novels) that have been reviewed in a professional or semi-pro genre fiction magazine, including an electronic magazine being indexed by the ISFDB, but not a fanzine."

Does that cover it? And how do people feel about graphic novels in this connsction? I have no strong personal views. -DES ^Talk 17:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I am actually fine with reviewed graphic novels being included but thought I should bring up the point. I think the robots are mostly responsible for them being in the system as is the case with a lot of out-of-scope items. As long as we are not motivating the robots I think we can deal with the human submissions.--swfritter 19:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Please drop the "but not a fanzine". If it's a Fanzine we have here, for instance this, then the reviews in it are presumably of value. Fanzine reviews of Fanzines we don't include could be left as essays in case we need to find them if a fanzine becomes included. BLongley 20:40, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. It is the very fact that a professional magazine chooses to review something that gives some excuse for recording it, IMO. Even so, the example you cite appears to review no non-genre fiction, and the non-fiction it reviews is: The Bermuda Triangle Mystery - Solved (also reviewed by Analog, so IN regardless); The Galactic Club: Intelligent Life in Outer Space (whose value I can't asses); Fiction Writer's Handbook (probably IN anyway as "about SF"); The Dracula Book (unlinked, so i can't asses); and A Pictorial History of Science Fiction Films (from the title, marginal). Notes on the Hauter Experiment was listed as NONFICTION, but turns out to be an SF Juvenile.

Still, if others want, the language could be changed to "Nonfiction or non-genre fiction books (including graphic novels) that have been reviewed in a genre fiction magazine, including an electronic magazine, that is already indexed by the ISFDB." I won't enter books from fanzine reviews, but then i don't enter fanzines anyway, so that is no loss. -DES ^Talk 21:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It might also be redundant to exclude webzines which are not in the system. You might want to say that the books "have been reviewed in a publication that is in (or in the process of being entered into) the ISFDB system" or something similar. That will avoid books being added from reviews in non-included webzines AND other questionable sources. The fact that a review is in the system or about to be added is the justification for the book being reviewed to also be in the system. Fanzines I am not so sure about. S-F fans are voracious readers of all types of books and the spectrum of books that can be reviewed in fanzines can reflect that fact.--swfritter 21:56, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

While I just deleted that Hillerman book I don't have strong feelings about the issue. One idea I like is what Kevin suggested which is "For Non-Fiction I also often enter the original Hardcover edition, and then the first 'cheap' edition." but to modify this to allow entry of reviewed fiction works, to only enter the first edition (regardless of binding), and to add a title-record note explaining the rationale for the publication that has been recorded.

While I proposed entering the first edition for a non-genre work (fiction or non-fiction) I could see another edition, or other editions, being recorded if they are noteworthy. The title record notes should explain why each publication merits inclusion to discourage people from adding publications indiscriminately.

This would allow non-genre author bios to get populated with the titles that have some connection to specfict, in this case because they were reviewed in a specfict magazine. I'd support these single-pub titles for fiction, comics, etc.

One other thought related to this is if the cover artist is not already in ISFDB for specfict work then to credit the artist in the notes.

Also, while we may be adding an In I'd like things worded so that people may enter these out of scope works but you don't have to. --Marc Kupper|talk 00:24, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

(Unindent) I don't quite understand why you deleted the Hillerman book rather than adding a title note such as you suggest, since this discussion seems to be tending to make it IN. Why not at least wait until the discussion is over? (If the discussion ends with such books IN, I expect to re-add it.) Part of the point, as I understand it, to making such books in is to avoid dead-end reviews, but you just created one. While i would agree that no one is ever required to enter a non-genre or non-fiction book due to a review -- indeed no one is ever required to enter any particular title or pub anyway -- I don't see that as equating to "anyone is free to delete any such title". -DES ^Talk 02:28, 16 August 2009 (UTC) As to which edition or printing to enter. I agree that the fist edition of any such book has a claim. So, IMO, does any edition dating from shortly before the review, which is quite likely the edition reviewed, or the actual edition reviewed if that information is available. But perhaps the best claim, at least when working from secondary sources, is whatever edition there is complete, or most nearly complete, data on. I agree that such titles should not follow the "capture every printing" principle we otherwise use, and that any additional pubs should be justified in a note. -DES ^Talk 02:28, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Oh, I left the other Hillerman book undelelted, although i haven't read it, because it appeared to be a retelling of an authentic folktale. -DES ^Talk 02:28, 16 August 2009 (UTC)