User talk:Teallach

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Welcome!

Hello, Teallach, and welcome to the ISFDB Wiki! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Note: Image uploading isn't entirely automated. You're uploading the files to the wiki which will then have to be linked to the database by editing the publication record.

Please be careful in editing publications that have been primary verified by other editors. See Help:How to verify data#Making changes to verified pubs. But if you have a copy of an unverified publication, verifying it can be quite helpful. See Help:How to verify data for detailed information.

I hope you enjoy editing here! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will insert your name and the date. If you need help, check out the community portal, or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!Kraang 23:22, 17 December 2021 (EST)

Dating and all that

First - welcome. :) Moving to your page so you can have a reference for later. The earlier part is here.

Think of ISFDB as a database - not as a site - if I do a query for all books in December 1973, I won't check if any of them are "arbitrary" months - I will assume that the DB has the correct data. Sorting and visualization are different problems from data validity and we cannot solve one of them at the expense of the other :) Hope that makes sense. We don't have a page specifically saying "don't use invented data" as it seems to be intuitive. And the project had been around for a very long time - things had changed, some editors may not have paid attention in some places. Part of the reason why we have moderation is exactly to try to ensure that everything follows the same rules (but we are human and that fails now and again) and to work with new editors on the less clear parts of the rules.

It does get easier as you get used to it, yes :) If you have any questions/concerns, don't hesitate to ask or use the help desk or the rest of the Community boards. Annie 11:21, 5 January 2022 (EST)

Oceans of Venus

Regarding this submission: The ISFDB is a publication based database. Instead of creating an empty variant first, you should enter the publication (using either the "Add New..." or "Clone" depending if it already exists in the database) first and then once approved, making any necessary variants.

In this particular case, we already have Oceans of Venus along with its foreword in the database so this new variant would have been a duplicate record. Please check whether you have one of the existing Oceans of Venus records. If not, please use the clone option. ISFDB has some conventions that need learning so please check out the help links in the welcome message above. And let us know if you have any questions (ISFDB:Help desk is a good resource for asking). -- JLaTondre (talk) 07:01, 7 January 2022 (EST)

As I stated in the Note to Moderator, the pub record to which I want to attach a Foreword already exists and it is this one: The Oceans of Venus When I looked through the existing records for Forewords associated with this novel, I found the one to which you referred: Foreword (Oceans of Venus) However, I could not find one called "Foreword (The Oceans of Venus)" so I tried to create it. I have read your comment and the related Help pages carefully but I still do not understand why what I did is wrong. Can you please clarify.Teallach 18:30, 8 January 2022 (EST)
Sorry, I misunderstood your note. You would edit the publication and add the foreword in the content sections of the pub record. That will create the new record and have it in the correct pub. That avoids having an empty title record that could get deleted. Once the pub edit is accepted, the new foreword would be varianted to the existing Foreword (Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus). In general, title records should be created from editing or creating a pub, not by creating an empty variant. Hope that makes sense. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:55, 8 January 2022 (EST)
I followed your instructions and updated the pub record directly. This is in submission 5192436 which has been approved. However, the new title record Foreword (The Oceans of Venus) is NOT a variant of the desired parent: Foreword (Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus). How do we rectify this situation?Teallach 18:39, 12 January 2022 (EST)
Go to the record you want to become a variant: Foreword (The Oceans of Venus). Look in the left menu and locate "Make This Title a Variant". In this case, it will open this. In Option 1, put the ID of the parent (751145 in this case) and click on "Link to Existing Parent" (careful - the button is in the middle of the page; the one at the bottom of the page will do something else as it is for a different usecase. Wait for it to be approved. Situation rectified :) Let me know if you have questions. Annie 18:43, 12 January 2022 (EST)
All looks good now. Thanks for your help.Teallach 13:45, 15 January 2022 (EST)

Prologue (Foundation's Edge)

I am creating and PVing a later printing of Foundation's Edge. Whilst adding the Prologue, I noticed that a Title record for it already appears to exist: Prologue (Foundation's Edge) and the only pub record it relates to is the first printing, which you have PVd. The Prologue is recorded as SHORTFICTION but I think it should be ESSAY. The giveaway is this first sentence of a paragraph toward the bottom the first page: "In the Foundation Trilogy, the story of the first four centuries of the Interregnum is told". Can you please check the Prologue in your copy to see if it is the same and let me have your thoughts on changing the Type.
Based on the Last User Activity Date, there are 3 PVs who are still active: Willem H, Taweiss and Nihonjoe, so I have posted this note to all your Talk pages. I am a new editor, so am not sure of the correct etiquette for handling this situation, but it seems desirable to have the whole conversation in one place. So may I suggest you reply on my Talk page. Thanks. Teallach 17:42, 21 January 2022 (EST)

I'll check when I get home. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:02, 21 January 2022 (EST)
The prologue is a summary of the first three books in the series, and is what we call a "fictional essay". See the help text here, under short fiction and essay. Back in 2008 it was classified as short fiction (note that no length is assigned because it is not a short story). I.m.o. it should stay this way. --Willem 04:30, 22 January 2022 (EST)
Thanks, Willem. I agree. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 11:55, 24 January 2022 (EST)
No reply from Taweiss, but as I raised this issue a week ago I would like to close it. I appreciate that the difference between Essay and Shortfiction is sometimes subjective so, as there is a difference of opinion in this case, I suggest we leave things as they are. Thank you for your input. Teallach 18:12, 28 January 2022 (EST)

Notifications when the PVs are inactive

Hello,

When you don't have active PVs to work with but you have PVs in the book and the change is major, the policy is to post in the Moderator Noticeboard instead. Changes to notes such as here can be just submitted as long as they do not contradict the existing ones. As these did not, I approved it but just FYI in case you need to change something bigger next time :) Annie 01:30, 16 February 2022 (EST)

Will do. No problem. Teallach 13:56, 16 February 2022 (EST)

The Magic Goes Away

I'm holding this submission. Are you planning on entering content titles in either the beginning or ending unnumbered page ranges? If not, there is no need to add these. Please read bullet point three under Pages. John Scifibones 17:38, 30 June 2022 (EDT)

I changed the page numbering to include the unnumbered pages at the start and end of the book because they do indeed include a content title. This content title is already listed in the Contents section of the pub record. It is the interior artwork. This artwork is extensive. It starts in the unnumbered pages before the beginning of the novella, is intermixed throughout the novella and the essay and finishes in the unnumbered pages after the end of the essay. The pub notes clarify that artwork is present in the unnumbered pages. Teallach 18:55, 1 July 2022 (EDT)
I approved your edit. I saw the note about the existing interior art title. I'm curious to see what you add. Thanks John Scifibones 19:28, 1 July 2022 (EDT)

Edmund Cooper (Richard Avery) / The Deathworms (Death Worms) of Kratos

Posted on the talk pages of: PeteYoung, Mavmaramis, Dirk P Broer, Biomassbob, GlennMcG
I will be editing and PVing both the 1975 Coronet pb and 1979 Coronet pb of The Death Worms of Kratos. Although both of these pubs have "Deathworms" on the covers, they state "Death Worms" on their title pages. The ISFDb records incorrectly have "Deathworms" so I propose to correct the pub records and will add appropriate pub notes. As the 1975 Coronet pb is the true 1st ed (confirmed by Currey), I will also change the canonical title to "Death Worms" and make all the necessary associated changes (eg Coverart records).
Biomassbob and GlennMcG: you have PVd the 1975 Fawcett pb. Can you please confirm this has "Deathworms" on the title page. If so, after I have done all the above changes, I will make sure it is correctly varianted.
Is all this ok with everyone? Teallach (talk) 17:01, 19 September 2022 (EDT)

The Severn House edition even has the title as 'Death Worms' on cover.--Dirk P Broer (talk) 17:55, 19 September 2022 (EDT)
My copy definately has "Deathworms" on the title page. Bob (talk) 10:26, 20 September 2022 (EDT)
Mine as well (Deathworms). --Glenn (talk) 17:06, 20 September 2022 (EDT)
Dirk: Yes, I noticed that cover of the Severn House ed. Unfortunately, it has no PV so we cannot check the title on the title page. Thus I propose to leave that pub record alone. Teallach (talk) 18:07, 20 September 2022 (EDT)
Bob and Glenn: Thanks for the confirmation. Teallach (talk) 18:08, 20 September 2022 (EDT)
No objections after one week so I am proceeding with the changes. Teallach (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2022 (EDT)

Amazon and old books

I approved the edit here but reverted the month change. The Amazons can be used for dating of new books (aka ones they got as new) but a record for a 1979 book is coming from a vendor and these are... problematic. They are not all wrong but there are enough which are to make them all unreliable. So you need a different source - a scan of a jacket showing a month, a bibliography or something else like that. Using Amazon as a springboard (now you know it is possibly October so you know what contemporary reviews and magazines/newspapers may have it so you narrowed it down a bit more in looking for an actual source if you care to). Let me know if you have any questions. On a separate note - unless the publication already carries the new date, ALWAYS add a proper note into the title when you change a date to a date that does not match the books we have. It can be removed later but until the publication is sorted out, the title should be able to defend its date on its own (and you do not want someone to undo the change because there is no documentation for it) :) Annie (talk) 23:59, 2 December 2022 (EST)

That's fine. I have submitted all the edits for the related pubs. Teallach (talk) 18:13, 3 December 2022 (EST)

PKD - Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said

Hi, just adding author's copyright date to this. Thanks, Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 04:10, 5 January 2023 (EST)

That's fine. Thanks for letting me know. Teallach (talk) 17:40, 5 January 2023 (EST)

Asimov - Foundation

Hi, you're PV here and here. I'm adding a cautionary note same as here "Note that this..." etc. Kev --BanjoKev (talk) 15:10, 9 February 2023 (EST)

That's fine. Thanks for letting me know. Teallach (talk) 16:55, 9 February 2023 (EST)

Asimov - I, Robot

Hi, I'd like to change wording here to be a bit clearer (all the other Panther printings have white Asimov): "Only Panther edition that has...etc" to "Only Panther printing that has...etc". Would you be ok with that?

[edit] I'm about to submit a 1978 print and I noticed that it has Asimov in white on the cover but yellow on the spine. Could you therefore confirm your 1975 has Asimov in white on the spine? If it does, I can add that to the notes as well. Thanks, Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 18:43, 15 February 2023 (EST)

My 1975 Panther printing has "Asimov" coloured in yellow on both front cover and spine.
The statement "Only Panther edition that has Asimov's name in yellow on the cover." is rather sweeping. This 1984 printing lists 17 printings up to 1984 yet the ISFDb only has records for 9 Panther(/Granada) printings of which 6 have been PVd. So we don't know whether any of the 11 unlisted / unverified printings have Asimov's name in yellow on the cover. Consequently, my preference would be to delete that pub note. It's not necessary. However, I accept that it is very probably correct so if you and the other active PVs of the 1975 printing agree that you want to keep it then I'll go along with that. If you do decide to keep it, I'm happy with your proposed clarification of the wording. Teallach (talk) 18:50, 16 February 2023 (EST)
I agree that the statement should be deleted for just the reasons you state, I was unhappy with it from the get-go.
I'd like to replace it with "Note the colourations: Asimov is in yellow on the front cover and spine, and I, Robot is also yellow on the back cover." Is that true and ok with you?
My 1975 has Asimov in white on the spine, so I'll create a new record for it - and link that back to yours to highlight that there are two 1975s. When all that's done, I'll remove my PV on your 1975. Thanks, Kev --BanjoKev (talk) 22:48, 16 February 2023 (EST)
My 1975 Panther printing has "Asimov" coloured in yellow on both front cover and spine and the three "I, Robot"s on the rear cover are also coloured in yellow.
In the past I have come across minor printing variations among otherwise identical printings but they are rare. So if you don't mind me asking, can you please check your copy carefully to ascertain if it might have been originally published with yellow "Asimov" on the spine but this has now faded to white as a consequence of years of exposure to sunlight. Teallach (talk) 18:59, 17 February 2023 (EST)
No, I don't mind you asking at all because it's the first thing I thought of. I've come across this sort of thing before, so I know exactly what you mean. I've looked at mine under magnification and strong light and it's definitely white. Btw, for the year, the book is in superb condition.
The implications of this discussion are why I'm now submitting my edits to include a brief description of the spine - especially on the older books and for Panther in particular.
So... we have two separable 1975 printings. If it's ok with you I'll go ahead and make all the changes, as above. Many thanks. Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 19:41, 17 February 2023 (EST)
Yes, go ahead with your edits.
In case you're interested, I have taken three photos of my copy and uploaded them to Dropbox. You can download them with this link. Teallach (talk) 18:50, 18 February 2023 (EST)
Yes I would be interested, but my browser always hangs at Dropbox and I can't access it. Would it be too much to ask for you to Special Upload it to the DB - we can ask a moderator to delete it afterwards. Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 22:09, 21 February 2023 (EST)
I prefer not to upload to the ISFDb because the files ought to be deleted after use and, as you say, this requires moderator intervention and I don't like to bother moderators with such issues. I've checked the Dropbox link using Firefox and Edge and it works for me even when I'm not logged in. Dropbox supports Firefox, Edge, Chrome and Safari. Try one of those browsers, making sure the browser is up to date. If you still can't get it to work, let me know and I will upload to ISFDb. Teallach (talk) 18:47, 22 February 2023 (EST)
I use Chrome on my PC and I can't access Dropbox, although I can access other similar sites. I also only get sporadic access to OCLC/Worldcat. Peculiar. Moderators don't mind image deletion requests, it takes them about ten seconds. I've asked before with no problems. If you would upload to the DB, I'll take responsibility to make sure they're deleted and you can forget them. I'd like to bring something else to your attention germain to this thread, so I'll unindent.
Strange. I'm not familiar with Chrome but I guess there's a security setting in your installation that is preventing you from accessing Dropbox. Sometimes these settings are deeply buried. Anyway, never mind, I have uploaded the three images to the ISFDb wiki here: front and rear and spine. When you have finished with them, please ask a moderator to delete. Teallach (talk) 17:16, 23 February 2023 (EST)

(unindent)You and I seem to have similar collections - I've noticed that, like me, you have multiple copies of the same titles.

I'm processing 1973 and 1977 Panther printings of Second Foundation (you have 1973 and 1974). In the light of what we've discussed above, I checked all the text colourings and found them to differ. I'll be paying much more attention to this issue in future and may even look back at all my other Panthers; they've definitely got an agenda with these colours :)

Have a look at the notes in the 1977 I've just submitted. On my 1973 front cover, Asimov is the same in white but Second Foundation is in yellow. On the spine all text is white. The back cover Second Foundation is in a lighter, creamier green than that on the 1977 front cover. All angels dancing on the head of a pin I know, but I find it intriguing. Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 21:17, 22 February 2023 (EST)

The covers (front, rear and spine) of my 1973 and 1974 printings of Second Foundation are identical in all aspects (art, text, colouring, prices, etc). However, there appears to be one difference from your 1973 printing. On mine, "Asimov" on the spine is not white; it is the same pale green colour as the words "Second Foundation" on the rear cover. All other text on the spine is white.
See above for my reply regarding the I, Robot cover images. Teallach (talk) 17:16, 23 February 2023 (EST)

Through Road No Whither

I approved your submissions completing the reversal of the variant relationship between Through Road, No Whither and Through Road No Whither. Your submissions were correct but you missed a step. From your note to moderator

  1. ) Break current variant relationship
  2. ) Make With comma version a variant of No comma version
  3. ) Change date of With comma version to its first appearance

You ignored the two foreign language titles. Step 2 would have tried to make the translations variants of a variant. Next time, you can submit a make variant edit for each translation changing the link to what will be the new parent title. No need to break the link, just substitute the new parent's record number. The only caveat is step 1 must be processed first. Let me know if this isn't clear. John Scifibones 13:13, 18 February 2023 (EST)

Yes, I see. First time I've come across this scenario. Thanks for the heads up. Teallach (talk) 18:51, 18 February 2023 (EST)

Asimov - The Caves of Steel

Panther again! I'm submitting spine and back cover colour notes to this 1974 printing, and also a pub-specific image. Let me know if yours differs. Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 12:13, 25 February 2023 (EST)

My copy has "Asimov" on spine in the same light green colour as "A Full-Length Asimov Mystery" on rear cover. Otherwise, same as you describe. Consequently I can't agree with your note about the colour. What are you doing regarding these colour variations? Personally I don't think these differences are significant enough to merit cloning to create a new pub record. I would just add a pub note to the existing record along the lines of 'Some copies were issued with "Asimov" coloured light green on the spine; other copies have "Asimov" coloured blue on the spine'. However, that's just my opinion. You should ask a moderator. Teallach (talk) 17:12, 25 February 2023 (EST)

Asimov - The Stars Like Dust

Hi, Replacing the linked image with pub-specific one, adding author copyright and fixing typo A$1.00 -> NZ$1.00 here. Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 20:39, 25 February 2023 (EST)

That's fine. Thanks for letting me know. Teallach (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2023 (EST)

Asimov - Buy Jupiter and Other Stories

Hi, there are essays missing in the 1977 printing which I will be submitting. I'll also replace the linked image with a pub-specific one. Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 19:47, 27 February 2023 (EST)

Regarding the Contents you have recently updated on this pub:
A) The Contents are not sorted correctly. When using pipe in the page field, the syntax is: <value to display>|<value to sort by>. See Help:Page and the sub-sections "Sorting" and "Multiple titles". So, for example, you should have used:
85|85.1 Afterword (Everest) - not 85|0.1
85|85.2 Introduction (The Pause) - not 85|0.2
Using 85|0.1 displays 85 but sorts the content entry one tenth of the way between pages 0 and 1
B) I do not like what you have done regarding these numerous story introductions and afterwords. See: Help:Contents included with exceptions and the first sub-section: "Story introductions". I consider that the sentence "If these are short and amount to blurbs, they should not be indexed separately." applies. They are not "critical essays or otherwise have significant content". As the Help note goes on to say, this is a judgment call so there is no objective right or wrong answer. But the main reason I don't like it is a practical one. I feel the majority of users who look at the Contents section of a pub record for a Collection would want to assess which stories are contained in the pub. The new layout (even after the sorting is fixed) makes it very difficult to identify the story entries amongst the huge number of tiny essay entries. Could you please have a think about this and consider reinstating the Contents as they were before your edit. Teallach (talk) 18:33, 4 March 2023 (EST)
re A) I have already submitted an edit to correct my mistake with the piping - it's been awhile since I last did it, see here.
re B) Are you suggesting missing out content because it might be confusing "to the majority of users"? If you are, I think that is an untenable road to travel down - but if that's your opinion, you're perfectly entitled to hold it.
The main reason I've separated out the essays is because I consider that they contain pertinent biblio/biographical information about the author, the stories, and how they came about. They certainly can't be characterised as "blurbs" as you suggest.
Some essays are lengthy, some are short. Should we include only the lengthy ones (that amount to a decent piece of work) and exclude short ones? If so, where's the line of decision? Is it one paragraph, two, half a page, a page and a half? In their totality, the essays make up a good proportion of the book and to write them off as a "huge number of tiny essay entries" isn't justified.
As the Help says, this is a judgement call. Kev. --BanjoKev (talk) 21:53, 4 March 2023 (EST)
You are swimming against the tide here. Including translations, there are 15 PVd pub records for this title. I would bet they all contain the essays and yet you are the only editor who deems that they merit indexing. Anyway, one thing we do agree on is that this is a judgement call. Neither of us is definitively right or definitively wrong and, consequently, I do not want to argue about it anymore. I have removed my PV from this pub record. It's all yours. Teallach (talk) 18:22, 5 March 2023 (EST)

Defining "Published"

A quick heads-up since you participated in this Rules and Standards discussion back in February: a new version of the proposed Policy update has been posted and is available for review/discussion. Ahasuerus (talk) 16:30, 30 April 2023 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads up. All looks good to me. Teallach (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2023 (EDT)
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