User talk:Scifibones/Archive 1

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This is an archive page of older talk threads - Please do not post here


Hello, Scifibones/Archive 1, and welcome to the ISFDB Wiki! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Note: Image uploading isn't entirely automated. You're uploading the files to the wiki which will then have to be linked to the database by editing the publication record.

Please be careful in editing publications that have been primary verified by other editors. See Help:How to verify data#Making changes to verified pubs. But if you have a copy of an unverified publication, verifying it can be quite helpful. See Help:How to verify data for detailed information.

I hope you enjoy editing here! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will insert your name and the date. If you need help, check out the community portal, or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! -- JLaTondre (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2020 (EDT)

Thank you for the welcome.

I have been using the database for quite a while, feel it is time to start giving back. I have a fairly large collection and should be able to make a useful contribution. Scifibones 07:59, 7 August 2020 (EDT)

Starborn & Godsons

Your moderator note on this submission says you corrected the ISBN. However, there was no change submitted? What correction were you attempting to make? As far as your comment on the ISBN10 vs ISBN13, we enter the ISBN10 for pubs without an ISBN13 and the ISBN13 for pubs with it. The software automatically shows the converted value. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2020 (EDT)

Farmer Giles of Ham

Hello. In your submission here you asked if it was OK to update the notes. Answer: yes it is, insofar you do not remove any data/information that is valid. In other words: feel free to correct any mistakes you find, and add new information to the notes as you see fit. It is always good practice to also state when what information has been updated or added - see Pub Note help page and How to Update a Publication.

Also, if you have the book available, consider primary verifying it - this signifies that you, the PV, confirms that the recorded information is accurate as per the publication (if you have the book only temporarily in your possession, transient verify it instead). Thanks! MagicUnk 13:12, 6 August 2020 (EDT)

By the way, do not hesitate to reply here by clicking [edit] to the right of this title. MagicUnk 13:13, 6 August 2020 (EDT)

I own the book so I verified it. Thanks for your patience. Scifibones 07:52, 7 August 2020 (EDT)

More on notes

Hi, and a belated welcome. In response to your question about noting the LCCN of 00-0000, sure, any detail like that is fine to include in the notes. Sometimes subtle differences in detail can help us distinguish separate printings (e.g., suppose another one looked just like this but had a proper LCCN instead).

One other thing: The Help desk is a good place to ask best-practice and how-to questions. The entire community can help you, not just moderators, you're likely to get a response more quickly when the pending submission queue is long and the moderator pool is thin, and you won't need to make some sort of edit just to ask your question. It's fine to ask questions in your submission notes or on the Moderator noticeboard, too, if you think moderator attention is needed. I'm just making sure you're aware of the resources available. Thanks. --MartyD 08:49, 9 August 2020 (EDT)

I went ahead and added the erroneous LCCN. I'm sure I'll be using the help resources you listed. Scifibones 09:53, 9 August 2020 (EDT)

Can you please resubmit the update again? Someone submitted a delete or a merge that was approved before your update so your update had to be hard rejected - it referenced a title inside of the submission that does not exist anymore so we cannot do anything else. It is rare (~ish) but it does happen occasionally and the only remedy is to redo the submission I am afraid :( I can also update instead of you if you prefer. And when resubmitting, instead of "My copy shows LCCN of 00-0000." can you use "PV1's copy shows LCCN of 00-0000." (so it is clear who the "I" is :)). Thanks and sorry about that. Annie 16:51, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

I'll take care of it. Scifibones 17:11, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Approved. Thanks! Annie 18:00, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Your question

You asked: Note, LCCN is the same for all volumes in this series. Should I put that in the notes here and in Refugee which I just verified?. Answer: Yes :) Regards, MagicUnk 15:55, 13 August 2020 (EDT)

Done Scifibones 16:28, 13 August 2020 (EDT)

The Forge of God

Regarding your "I was going to leave a note on PV1's talk page but it said he is inactive. Do I need to somehow identify that this is from PV2's copy?" question in the moderator's notes. No, you typically would not have to indicate a specific verifier's comments. The only time that would be needed if it was something specific to your edition that needed to be captured. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 19:48, 14 August 2020 (EDT)

Thanks Scifibones 20:04, 14 August 2020 (EDT)

Asimov on Astronomy

I also have a copy of Asimov on Astronomy. Mine happens to be a 2nd printing. Is there any value in adding another primary verification?, If so, should I eliminate the 4th printing statement. Should I put 1979 in the main date field? I'm asking as you are the PV and a moderator. Scifibones 16:10, 10 August 2020 (EDT)

I moved the above from Talk:JLaTondre & deleted that page since it is invalid. User talk pages will be "User talk:USERNAME". I just happened to chance across that page.
You are welcome to add the 2nd printing, but you would do that by cloning an existing version (either my 4th printing or the first printing). You would not replace the 4th printing or verify it. We create separate records for each printing. Hopefully that answers your question. If my answer wasn't clear, let us know. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 20:25, 14 August 2020 (EDT)

Magic Kingdom for Sale—Sold!

Hello. I have accepted your submission to add an additional title to Magic Kingdom for Sale—Sold!. However, I am now wondering exactly how the title of this excerpt appears in the publication... Could you confirm it is written in the book exactly as 'Excerpt from The Wizard of Oz'?

Also, I've updated this title and removed the italic formatting, as using these interferes with searches. And I've updated the title type from novel to short fiction (as it's obviously not a full novel). Same Question for The Black Unicorn. Regards, MagicUnk 16:10, 20 August 2020 (EDT)

Answered on your discussion page Scifibones 17:00, 20 August 2020 (EDT)

Hi. No need to answer on my talk page :). You can simply reply here, as I am monitoring your page.
Concerning the title "L. Frank Baum, The Wizard of Oz", I would enter it as either "L. Frank Baum, The Wizard of Oz (excerpt)", or simply as "The Wizard of Oz (excerpt)" - the latter has my personal preference. The rules for excerpts are that you enter the title of the excerpt as shown in the pub, and then append (excerpt) to the title to clarify it is, indeed, an excerpt. Also, excerpts are registered as SHORTFICTION. Hope this clarifies. Feel free to ask further questions here or over at the help desk. Regards, MagicUnk 01:23, 21 August 2020 (EDT)

I updated all five novels in this series, where I am the primary verifier, to incorporate your suggestions. I also used the sort order pipe for the last two in the series. I think I did it correctly. Thanks for your help. Scifibones 12:36, 21 August 2020 (EDT)

The Skaar Invasion

Hello. Wanted to let you know I've accepted the addition of the interior artwork, but I changed the title to The Skaar Invasion (map) as for untitled interior art we take the pub's title, and disambiguate by appending '(map)' to it. Unless the map was really titled Shannara Map in the book?? I've also merged it with the already-existing INTERIORART record.

And another minor thing: I've also updated the notes and changed 'Data from Amazon and Locus Magazine #691 as of 2018-08-06.' to Listed in Locus Magazine #691; Publication date from as of 2018-08-06', this to clarify only date was obtained from Amazon and that the other information came directly from your copy of the book (which in my humble opinion is more correct doing it this way). Thanks! MagicUnk 07:59, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

Did the same for The Sorcerer's Daughter. Note that if you know that these maps are exactly the same, you can variant one to the other, so that they are linked. MagicUnk 08:03, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

The map title is "Shannara" over "The Four Lands" hence I felt Shannara map was the most appropriate name. As stated in the notes, this map is used in several different volumes. To give it a different name each time it is used seems odd. Also, the map is properly dated 2012, the Skaar Invasion was published in 2018, how could the Skaar invasion map have been published 6 years before the book?
I agree with your change regarding the Locus reference. I didn't change it because it was originally noted by one of the moderators. I will not hesitate to make this change in future updates. Scifibones 08:22, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
I went back and looked at Wards of Faerie. I think the best solution is to title the maps Shannara: The Four Lands (map) and link to the original usage. Appreciate the work you do as moderator. Scifibones 08:54, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
Yup, that's indeed a good way of doing that, as that is exactly as it is shown in the publications. Then you can always use the same title for the (identical) maps in the different volumes where it's used, linking them all together. There may be differences between the different maps though, so look out for these. Small, cosmetic, differences can be disregarded, but I'm inclined to suggest to create a new record if the differences between versions of the map are substantial (what that means exactly is for a large part a judgement call on part of the editor, so...). And you can also make a note (in the INTERIORART title record) where you explain that the map is, in effect, titled "Shannara" over "The Four Lands"... but I leave that to you if you feel like it :) Keep up the good work! Regards, MagicUnk 12:42, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
Oh and note that the way I described above (the varianting) is the standard way of linking them together. However, I'm fine with the suggested approach of using the actual title of the map. MagicUnk 12:44, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
Updated as discussed. I think I did it correctly Scifibones 15:00, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
I've approved and merged them. Looks good to me. Regards, MagicUnk 16:48, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
Thanks. Should I fix other related titles in this series, even though I didn't do the initial verification? The Black Elfstone for example. I would need to change the pages field and add the map into titles. Scifibones 17:31, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
If you have the book in hand (and thus can PV the pub record), you can improve/expand upon the existing data no problem (observing the etiquette to check with other (active) primary verifiers, of course, that they agree with the change/update). So, feel free to fix the other related titles if you have the books (and PV them,too :) MagicUnk 18:12, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
Roger that Scifibones 18:43, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

Fortress of Owls

Hello. I've accepted your edit submission of Fortress of Owls, but I updated the author of The Zeide (map) from cpdg to uncredited as we generally do not use initials for an author's name. I've also added a note explaining cpdg are initials (which is in line with current practice). Only when initials can be attributed to a specific author is the author name recorded. Have a look. Regards, MagicUnk 08:36, 6 September 2020 (EDT)
Same for Fortress of Dragons.
And by the way, it requires two merge edits to connect the identical map records you added to both 'Fortress of Owls' and 'Fortress of Dragons' (I've done that for you). Less edits would be needed if you wait for your first edit to be approved, and only then use the import function to import the two map records. Not a big deal, but I thought I mention it anyway. Good to know for next time :) -MagicUnk 08:44, 6 September 2020 (EDT)

I see the minor wording change to my note, no problem. I'm not familiar with the import function, would you mind providing a brief explanation? Scifibones 09:06, 6 September 2020 (EDT)
Of course! :) When you have a publication record open there's an import/export function at the left of the screen. If you click on 'Import Content', there are two options to import title records into the Contents section of the publication. If you choose option 1, enter the pub ID to import from, then submit (if there happen to have been too many title records that have been imported, you can afterwards remove these again by selecting 'Remove Titles From This Pub'). If you choose option 2, you can add as many titles one by one by providing the title ID of each of them (the latter option is most often used to add title records into an OMNIBUS publication). Hope this helps! Regards, MagicUnk 10:55, 6 September 2020 (EDT),
Thank you. Scifibones 12:11, 6 September 2020 (EDT)


Hello. You had a question here in your submission whether it is acceptable to credit the fiction author as artist of interior maps whenever this art is not credited. Short answer: No. Long anwer: Data that cannot be traced back to a (perhaps transient but) verifiable source should not be entered. So in this case uncredited should be used. Of course, you could add into the notes what you wrote in the Notes to Moderators: The maps are neither signed nor credited anywhere in book or on jacket. As of 2020-09-17 they are also published on the authors website along with maps not included in the books, with no mention of artist. This may infer that the author is also the artist but is not verified to be true. Even though I would not add that latest sentence myself, this is the preferred practice is you want to communicate your assumption. I've accepted your submission but changed the artist credit to 'uncredited'. Hope this helps. Regards, MagicUnk 15:20, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

Thanks for your help. If I hadn't seen the author's website, there is no question I would have marked them uncredited. I like you suggestion, I will place my note in the publication notes; without the stated inference. I will leave future users to make it themselves. Scifibones 16:58, 18 September 2020 (EDT)
In the pub notes I quoted as above, but, I left off "with no mention of artist" by accident. Do you want me to go back and change or leave as is. Sorry Scifibones 19:01, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

Cast of Characters

I accepted your publication edit submissions, but changed the "Cast of Characters" records. We generally enter these as essays (unless there is something unusual about them and they actual contain a story) and disambiguate common named, but different essays with the publication title. Hopefully that was clear, but if you look at the pubs, you should see what I mean. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 11:08, 19 September 2020 (EDT)

After rereading the help section regarding title field, not sure I would ever classify this as essay. To me it is fiction, it lists characters as they are portrayed in the story. I can certainly live with it either way. Apparently MagicUnk had no problem with my classification as he approved Iron Gray Sea. Scifibones 12:18, 19 September 2020 (EDT)
I'm just going with convention (see here). You or MagicUnk are welcome to initiate a discussion at ISFDB:Community Portal if you would like to see a change in that (people's opinions change with time so it can be worthwhile discussing). Personally, I would not index them as they are basically a part of the novel and I would treat them like fictional prefaces & afterwords (which we don't index as per the help). But that's just me. -- JLaTondre (talk) 12:47, 19 September 2020 (EDT

While on this topic, many of the books in this series also have fictional essays by one of the characters. These range from half a page to multiple pages in length. I choose not to include them in my edit. However, I am interested in knowing whether you would call these essays or short fiction. I would have called them fiction. Scifibones 12:41, 19 September 2020 (EDT)
Thanks for your reply. Appreciate the time and effort all the moderators put in. John Scifibones 13:27, 19 September 2020 (EDT)
Generally, fictional essays are treated as fiction. The help states "Some books contain fictional essays, purporting to written by a character in the book, as introductions or afterwords. There is no "FICTIONAL ESSAY" title type, so you have to choose whether the title is better described as SHORTFICTION or ESSAY" so it leaves the latitude to use essay if it makes sense. However, normally they would be entered as fiction. As for whether to include them, we generally don't enter them as separate records unless there is a reason to separate them from the work they go with (they have been republished, there are part of a collection / anthology, etc.). If they are part of a novel and would not appear separately, then they generally are not indexed.
You're welcome. There are some areas which are not clear in the help and people have different opinions. Feel free to ask for a second opinion or even recommend an alternate approach. New users are welcome to participate in and start discussions on the ISFDB:Community Portal, Rules and standards discussions, etc. pages. Your voice will have equal weight with others. -- JLaTondre (talk) 14:51, 19 September 2020 (EDT)

Devil's Due

Regarding your question in this submission: No, we would not enter such a minor item in the contents. You are, however, welcome to add it to the pub notes. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 11:10, 19 September 2020 (EDT)

PV notifications


It does not matter if a PV added/changed information or not - they verified that the information in the record is correct against the book - the PV is for the fact that they have access to the book itself. If all the information was already added (or was added later and verified by them), they still are owed a notification - so they can verify against their book again in case something is changed. Annie 17:14, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

I put a note on Markwood's talk page as you suggest. Scifibones 18:27, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

Merging titles

And time to learn something new. When you need to merge titles such as this case, you can use the Advanced Search so you have them in mergeable position. In this case, you want "Title is exactly Eosia (map) Title is exactly The Sapphire Rose (maps)" which leads to this. :) Figure out what needs to be merged and submit it. Let me know if you want to try. Annie 17:02, 25 October 2020 (EDT)

I only merged the hardcover records because those are the ones I own. However, I'm sure that the Del Rey pb's use the same map, but, I can't personally verify it. What should I do in that case. I have come across numerous instances of this. I also intend to do one more edit of the Sappire Rose. Change the page count to show the leading unnumbered pages and the page number of the map and start of the novel. Also, add a note that Locus1 refers to this as the 1st US edition. The main reason I started using isfdb, several years ago, was to identify true first editions. If I can help others glance at a record and see that the book is not really the first edition, despite what the publisher printed on the copyright page, that is a real service. I appreciate you and the other moderators can teach me. Scifibones 17:57, 25 October 2020 (EDT)
If you are not sure, don't merge - just add notes that they are likely the same. But your message in the submission seems to indicate that the maps are the same - in which case they need merging. The system finds more than the two because there are more than two with the same name - so just find the two that you want to merge in the list and merge them. Annie 19:05, 25 October 2020 (EDT)
I think the merge I have pending is what you are recommending. I merged them all. This has to be correct in light of my note in Domes of Fire. Scifibones 19:28, 25 October 2020 (EDT).
Yep. However - once it was approved, your latest pubEdit had to be hard rejected - the book contained one of the titles that don't exist after the merge -- so you will need to redo it. Annie 20:22, 25 October 2020 (EDT)
Resubmitted the edit. Scifibones 21:48, 25 October 2020 (EDT)


Going to rename "Technical Appendix" to "Technical Appendix (Starquake)" if you have no objection. Thanks. gzuckier 00:36, 4 February 2021 (EST)

Fine Scifibones 12:00, 4 February 2021 (EST)

Head On

Added cover, artist, notes and external IDs to your PV Head On.Jim 18:59, 6 March 2021 (EST)

fineScifibones 17:45, 8 March 2021 (EST)



In Elvenborn, "First Edition: August 2020" looks like a typo... Is it in the book or just a typo when you copied it? Either way - we need an update - either to fix the 2020 to 2002 or a note explaining that this is indeed what the book says even if it is obviously the 2002 book. You may also want to add the Jacket design credit in the notes (as you note that the book has it) - we do not have a field for these now but we might one day and then having it in the notes will be useful. Thanks! Annie 19:40, 16 March 2021 (EDT)

Thanks for catching that. Scifibones 11:46, 17 March 2021 (EDT)
Anytime :) Typos are the bane of a bibliographer's existence (I am more surprised when I do not see any than when I do see them) :) Annie 12:07, 17 March 202
Annie, would you like me to go back and add jacket design credit for all my pv's? I have no objection. Scifibones 15:30, 17 March 2021 (EDT)
It is not mandatory but when it is there, I like to add it - if we ever do something about designers and allow proper credits for them, having the data is better than not having it. So absolutely up to you :) Annie 16:15, 17 March 2021 (EDT)

Wellspring of Chaos

And others - are you saying that it is exactly the same set of maps in more than one book? Annie 17:52, 22 March 2021 (EDT)

Absolutely. Maps first appear in book 5 Death of Chaos (1995). There were 3 pages of maps. Starting in book 6 There were 4 pages of maps, signed and date 1995, which include the first 2 from Book 5 and 2 new pages. These 4 pages were repeated exactly in books 6,7,8,11,12,13. Signed and dated 1995,. I don't own 9 and 10 so I can't say poisitevly whether they were in those books. 18:07, 22 March 2021 (EDT)

(after conflict) So the best way to solve the maps issue I can think of:
  • Book 5: Leave the existing map there to be the only map that did not go higher, named as Death of Chaos (map) unless we find a beter name. Add 2 more maps for the two maps that are later in the later book
  • Import these two in Books 6-8, 11-13
  • In book 6, change the existing map to be one of the new maps and add the missing one. This sorts out 6.
  • In 7,8 and 11-13, import the 2 new maps from 6 and remove their original maps.
That gets the maps that match where they match. Now let's talk about naming them
  • Do these map have any titles, locations, anything at all on them that can be used as titles? If not, we will need to go with generic names and that will mean a lot of notes...
Let me know if that makes sense. If it does, and once we figure out the titles, I will assist you with next steps (basically socializing with the other active PVs of the books) and then we can execute. There is a lot of notes writing in the future here ;) Annie 18:47, 22 March 2021 (EDT)
Annie, this will be much easier than we thought. Book 5 has three pages of maps. First is a 2 page map titled "The World". Page 3 is merely an enlarged portion of the first map highlighting and area "Candar"(Not actually written as a title for the map). The following books up 13 have the exact same maps only the second page was enlarged to fill 2 pages. my first thought was to merge them all into one title. After looking at subsequent books, the "World" map is used, sometimes alone, sometimes with a different section enlarged on a following map. I Propose we set up one map "The World" which will be used in all the books starting with book 5. For books 5 thru 13 we have a second map which I have called "Candar". After we delete / merge these into books 5 thru 13. I will PV more of the following books and add any new map titles as needed. As far as 9 and 10 Welo who was PV on the German edition set up a variant of the book 5 "Death of Chaos" maps called Recluse (maps). He used this for all the books including 9 & 10 saying they are also the same. I can also ask SFJuggler the PV on book 10 to confirm it is the same.Scifibones 12:13, 24 March 2021 (EDT)
I would call it "The World (The Saga of Recluce)" or "The World (Recluce)" or something like that in case we have other world maps elsewhere but other from this sounds like a plan. Post the plan on the pages of the active verifiers on the books (if any), add some notes in the publications and convert everything that needs converting. Let me know if you need any assistance. Annie 12:50, 24 March 2021 (EDT)
I intend to post a link on each active PV talk page to the post below. Make any changes you see fit. Is there a way to link directly to that post as opposed to just my page? Also, should I post the link before or after all the changes.Scifibones 16:49, 24 March 2021 (EDT) P.S. I now have copies of Book 9 and 10
Before - you are seeking agreement before we change people's PVd data. If you try to submit the changes, a moderator will put them on hold pending verifiers' checks. :) I don't expect disagreement but the process is in place to ensure that verifiers have the chance to check the books before we change their data. Annie 17:41, 24 March 2021 (EDT)
Sent out links to the appropriate section on my page. Fortunately, many of the books were verified by the same few people. Some had a note on their page asking not to be notified. We'll see what happen. John Scifibones 18:49, 24 March 2021 (EDT)

Several months ago, I merged all the Sword of Truth maps with your approval( OOOPs it was the Eosia (maps)) Subsequent editors have completely ignored this merged title. I've change 180 degrees and think we really shouldn't put maps and art as additional titles. Just put in the notes what you think is relevant. In the Saga of the Recluse books, the maps were already populated even though there was no PV's. Didn't know if I could have just deleted the title.

Additional point. I read the moderator discussion re interior art. I have been includin cover design in all my new submissions . Hope you make it an entry like cover art., not an additional title. Cleaner the author listings, the better. Just my thoughts. Scifibones 18:36, 22 March 2021 (EDT)

The official policy is to index maps and internal art. We CAN use just two separate titles - 1 for book 5 (the 3 maps) and 1 for the rest (the 4 maps). Will that work better for you?
Designers for now are just in the notes BUT one day we may have a place to put them somewhere like the cover artists. Or something else. :) Annie 18:50, 22 March 2021 (EDT)
Annie, hope you are still monitoring my page. Rtrace only approved one of the edits I need in order to consolidate all the maps. still need 4948294 and 4945446 to be approved. Will you take care of this? I left a note on his page asking why he only approved one. Thanks John Scifibones 17:20, 29 March 2021 (EDT)
Dirk got 4945446 before me, 4948294 is now also approved. Annie 17:29, 29 March 2021 (EDT)
Submission 4949413 and 4949421 merge the listed maps into map1 for books 5 through 13. After approval I will import the second map . I will also PV the HC editions. Question, Some of publication entries have an inactive PV'er or no PV and don't have any of the maps listed. Should I import both maps or leave them as they are. John. Scifibones 10:55, 30 March 2021 (EDT)
You can import them. In the ones with inactive PVs, edit the publication as well and add "Maps imported on 2021-30-30 (or whatever date it is)" so it is clear that it is post-verification. In the ones with no PVs, just add "Maps based on the XXX edition" unless you are working off the edition you are importing into. I would be very careful importing into editions you had not seen as well... Annie 12:09, 30 March 2021 (EDT)
Got it, just cancelled 4949421, had a mistake in it, I will resubmit it in a minute Scifibones 12:11, 30 March 2021 (EDT) it is now 4949474 . I'M curious, how does the database decide which title number it will keep after the merge? Also, if you have time, would you mind approving these 2 submissions? I would like to start updating the relevant individual publications. Scifibones 11:51, 31 March 2021 (EDT)
Approved one of them - but rejected the other one. The German map needs to stay as a variant, not to be merged with the English ones (what your merge was doing). We variant for language change. Let me know if you want to resubmit or if you want me to do it for you. Annie 12:01, 31 March 2021 (EDT)
It will be faster if you do it, then I won't have to wait for approval. I had a feeling that was the case. thanks Scifibones 12:15, 31 March 2021 (EDT)
Here it is. See if any more merges are needed somewhere - a title got merged somewhere from the other merge so I think I am missing one. I am around so if you submit another merge I will approve fast(ish). Annie 12:23, 31 March 2021 (EDT)
I looked it over. We need the merge I have just submitted in order to end up with just one record. Whew . Scifibones 12:51, 31 March 2021 (EDT)
I noticed that this publication record [[1]] did not merge into all the others. Is it because the "Recluce (map) " (In the German editions) is a variant of the "Death of Chaos (map)" and there needs to still be an instance ? Or do we have to make "Recluce (map)" a variant of "The World (Saga of Recluce) (map)"? I really want to fix this one too because Doug responded favorably and this is one of his. Scifibones 13:11, 31 March 2021 (EDT)
As I said - look them over and see if anything else needs merging - some IDs shifted from the other merge so some may have been dropped when I did the merge to replace the faulty one. Annie 13:20, 31 March 2021 (EDT)
Annie, apparently Rtrace was only willing to accept my edit for HC's I am a PV. The 2 HC's he didn't accept are the two where I have a different printing (I have the first printing of both) so I didn't PV those. Was planning on cloning after the import was done. On the pb's I added a note when the PV was no longer active stating the date the maps were added, as you suggested. No note was left on my talk page. Did he happen to ask you about these edits? If they are not acceptable tell me and I won't waste any more time on this. I thought it would be beneficial to consolidate so many names for the same thing. Thanks, John Scifibones 12:46, 1 April 2021 (EDT)
The only rejection I am seeing is this one which has nothing to do with the maps? If you mean that he approved some while some others are still on the board unprocessed - do not read too much into it. We do not always work in order - and if something may need more time than you are sure you have now, it will just stay there for later. Patience :) Annie 13:45, 1 April 2021 (EDT)
Okay I'll chill. Patience has never been my strength. thanks Scifibones 14:07, 1 April 2021 (EDT)

Saga of Recluse maps consolidation

To those of you who have supplied a primary verification to any volumes in the Saga of Recluse series, thanks for taking a minute to read this. Maps have been included starting with book 5. Almost all the PV's have treated these as unique to whatever book and format they are verifying. What we now have, is many names and dates referring to the same map. The first 2 pages is one map titled "The World". A portion of this map is enlarged on the next page. Following volumes enlarge this second map to 2 pages. This continues on through book 13. Subsequent books use The World" map alone or with a different areas enlarge. I propose the following

1) Merge all the existing maps (not the colored endpapers by Lazlo Kubinyi) into one title "The World (Saga of Recluse)" I will indicate in the title note that the maps are signed and dated 1995. Also the maps are only credited on the copyright pages of some, not all, of the books.
2) Create a new map titled "Candar". I will import this title to books 5 through 13. I will fix up any numbering as necessary
3) A "Hamor" map will also be created for use in later books.
4) Notes in some publication records will obviosly be updated.

If you see any problems or improvements please post them here. Even criticism is welcome. Give me a little time to get all the changes complete before you judge. Thanks John Scifibones 16:42, 24 March 2021 (EDT)

Your use of "enlarge" is misleading, they are different maps containing many additional features. This has been on my list for a while (the links are now archived in 47 and 48). If you plan to do this, it sets a precedent, so even if this is only a one-off solution to this set of maps, a clear explanation for what is done and not done and why seems necessary.
One problem I can see is how someone with a new publication or new title in the series decides whether to create an INTERIORART and use the old naming scheme or use the existing entry. If they can't see the old maps they're shooting blind either way. It would be nice to have an image for comparison on a Wiki page covering the maps or the series, but whether we (ISFDB) want to is still an open question. I raise this because I have run across 'shared' maps in other series that had some small differences between volumes. And there's no
As to your specific points 1) love to see the merge, but have to assume that (Saga of Recluse) is a differentiator using our series name 2) the map is of Candar and Recluce (equal billing) and it's not really the title (no surrounding decoration) so you are assigning a name to an untitled map. Why not Recluce? Why not include the same series name? Why not include "(map)"? 3) See 2).
../Doug H 17:10, 25 March 2021 (EDT)
Hi Doug, your comments are excellent. I just posted the changes, to Fall of Angels as you responded. The name I used for the first map is "The World (Saga of Recluce) (map)" (map) was assumed. The second map I called "Candar and Recluce (map)". You are right, it is not an actual name, I originally thought Candar short and sweet but I like your suggestion better, so I used it. As far as an image, above my paygrade. I'm not doing the merges yet, waiting for more feedback. I just posted the changes to one that I'm the only PV. John Scifibones 17:58, 25 March 2021 (EDT)
I usually just went with whatever other publications of the title used. However, I can see where a similar naming convention might be useful. For example, Wellspring of Chaos has Wellspring of Chaos (maps), whereas Soarer's Choice has Map of Corus (Soarer's Choice). If you want to consolidate naming conventions, it's ok with me. AndonSage 14:05, 27 March 2021 (EDT)
Apreciaate the feedback Scifibones 15:11, 27 March 2021 (EDT)
I'm for cleaning up/consolidating the names but I don't have ready access to the books at the moment so do not have any "compare and contrast" comment here.16:34, 27 March 2021 (EDT)
Thanks for your input. Scifibones 17:56, 27 March 2021 (EDT)

Magi'i of Cyador

How is this different from the book we have? Thanks! Annie 05:29, 5 April 2021 (EDT)

Same question for this one. Annie 05:31, 5 April 2021 (EDT)

It looked like both of these were later printings. SFJuggler usually notes First Edition and printing when applicable.Death of Chaos and The White Order are two examples. If they were first's, then my two clones are not necessary. My PV and notes could just be added to the original pubs. Scifibones 06:56, 5 April 2021 (EDT)

Check with him - the books carry the first printing date so if they are not first printings, they will need to have their dates changed. :) Annie 07:09, 5 April 2021 (EDT)
Question posted on his talk page Scifibones 07:24, 5 April 2021 (EDT)
Jim confirmed they are first printings so I cancelled the 2 submissions. I will PV and add a couple notes. Also, if you would approve 4955499 and 1955512 I can complete complete all the PV and edits through book 19. Thanks, John Scifibones 18:47, 5 April 2021 (EDT)
:) If the PV is around, ask them in such cases. If you go for a clone, we will NEED to fix the other book anyway - so we may as well check beforehand. :) The merge is approved but 4955512 is hard reject - as it contained one of the titles that the merge disappeared, you will need to resubmit :) Annie 18:57, 5 April 2021 (EDT)
Since my changes were fairly substantial, I left another note on Jim's talkpage asking him to look at the changes and make sure he is happy with them.
I submitted 4955888 to redo the Forced Cancellation. That with recreate the title that I will be importing in most of the rest of the series. Thanks for sticking with me. I think this project is worth it. John Scifibones 19:25, 5 April 2021 (EDT)
Not a problem at all. :) Annie 20:31, 5 April 2021 (EDT)

Recluse maps

I'm currently PVing my recluce books, but have not bothered adding maps as it seems you're dealing with it. --GlennMcG 18:25, 9 April 2021 (EDT)

Xanth Volumes 16 through 21

Starting with Demons Don't Dream Tor took over publishing the series and began issuing hardcovers. Jael was commissioned to created a full color, two page, map of Xanth to be used as front and back endpapers. These were used for the first six hardcovers only. In addition, the verso side (left-hand) was reproduced in Black and White. This was then used as the first recto page (right-hand) after the title page. This continues through at least volume 32 (the newest one I own). I plan on significantly revising my PV of "Demons Don't Dream" and verifying and editing, as needed, all the volumes I own.


  1. Should I merge the various titles into a "Xanth (map)" dated 1993? (plan to only do this for the six hc volumes mentioned above)
  2. Is "fep&bep" an allowable page reference or do they need to be split?
  3. I was planning on removing the reference to the B&W map in "Demons Don't Dream" (one of my initial edits) and not mentioning it in all the rest of the volumes. What is your preference?
  4. Should I create a variant for the B&W map for those who use an "Interior artwork" title. (Any necessary merges will be performed).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scifibones (talkcontribs) .
If they are the same, they can be merged (like as did for the others). Talk to the verifiers before that though :)
Nope. You need to add it twice. Due to a software limitation that means creating a second one for the bep (using [bep] or [2] in the title) and then varianting with the main map. Or you can just note in the notes that it is repeated in bep as well. :)
Your book, you decide. I’d at least mention it in the notes :)
if it is the same map but just in black and white, it does not need a variant, it gets merged technically unless it has a different title. Even when it is just a half map. Then we use the notes to explain what it is. Due to the same software limitation as described before, you will again need a new title so a variant will be needed if the map is listed. Annie 17:31, 11 April 2021 (EDT)
Submissions 4968193 and 4968203 are ready. The first is the map which all the others will be merged into. The second is my revised Demons Don't Dream. I've learned a little since that original PV. Hope you afre still monitoring my page. Thanks John 18:44, 18 April 2021 (EDT)

Italics in notes

They are not a problem in the notes - we do not allow them inside of titles and author names and publisher names but you can use them in publication and title notes and on synopsis pages. Annie 10:57, 12 April 2021 (EDT)

Magic, the Final Fantasy Collection

About this one. Are you dropping "Cover is black and silver lettering on a silver background" on purpose? This is the kind of thing that is very hard to see on an image (our image does not show the background as silver to me) so I would rather keep (a version of) it? Possibly "Cover has black and silver lettering on a silver background". What do you think? Annie 15:24, 12 April 2021 (EDT).

When the book is sitting here next to me, it seems superfluous. However, for others, I can see the value. Go ahead and leave it. Scifibones 15:29, 12 April 2021 (EDT)
Let me know if I am one of the high volume low quality editors. I have 1000+ HC's to go! Scifibones 15:35, 12 April 2021 (EDT)
Approved and edited. Not sure why you would even think you might be - I do not remember ever needing to tell you the same thing twice, let alone a dozen times or having any major issues with your edits. :) Annie 15:45, 12 April 2021 (EDT)
Lol, I don't really think that. I have been quite active the past 2 weeks and the post on the moderator board tickled me. Scifibones 15:55, 12 April 2021 (EDT)

Reformatting notes while adding a single line

I would usually contemplate rejecting this kind of updates. We do not enforce Notes formatting and I find it in bad taste to change the format just to add one more note. When you are the first PV or you are adding a lot of new information, that's ok but when adding a single note where there are 4 already, I'd advocate to keep the existing formatting. Not everyone is comfortable with html. :) No rule about it though so technically you are not breaking a rule. What do you think? Annie 14:58, 16 April 2021 (EDT)

I don't normally do it. I thought I saw we were trying to get rid of line break use, somewhere. reject it and I will resubmit. Scifibones 15:04, 16 April 2021 (EDT)
Which does not mean adding html :) You can just delete the br tag from every line (but the beginning of the first (which moves the contents on line 2) - or when there are two in a row - they are there to make am empty line). Way back when, you needed these to make new lines. That had not been the case for a decade or so but they still linger in old entries (and old editors' submissions) :) . So it is about removing unneeded elements without changing how things actually look. That's what we are cleaning when we can. Hope that makes sense. Annie 15:09, 16 April 2021 (EDT)
PS: You can reject your own submission from :) Annie 15:09, 16 April 2021 (EDT)
Since you corrected my error giving cover art credit to the jacket designer, I have been seeing that mistake everywhere John Scifibones 15:20, 16 April 2021 (EDT)
"Consistency is NOT us" is the hidden name of the site for some things - as much as we try... :) The rules had changed a lot through the years and different people had been more or less observant on that specific issue through the years. So yeah - the records are all over the place. When you look for something, you will see a lot of it ;) Annie 15:25, 16 April 2021 (EDT)

Robots of Dawn

I approved your submission for Robots of Dawn, but you need to fix the cover scan. You used [2]. You need to eliminate the symbols between underlines to give [3]. This is often the case with Amazon cover scans, keep an eye out for it. Bob 15:13, 20 April 2021 (EDT)

Thanks Bob, John 18:09, 20 April 2021 (EDT)

Magic Kingdom of Landover map consolidation

The six volume series Magic Kingdom of Landover has only two different maps. The database has many different names for these maps.

I propose the following:

  • Volumes 1-5 - Merge all the titles into "Landover (map)" - This is the logical title, it is written in large letters on an unfolding scroll. I'll put a note on its title page that is is credited on the copyright page of some, not all the volumes. Also, that it is always signed and dated
  • Volume 6 - "The Magic Kingdom of Landover (map)" - Same reason for the title choice as above.

I would appreciate a comment and a yeah or nay. I don't want to change anything that a PV doesn't agree with. Thanks for taking a minute John Scifibones 19:12, 24 April 2021 (EDT)

I have no objection. The notes I put in this even already accommodate the change, albeit slightly redundantly. --MartyD 07:39, 25 April 2021 (EDT)
No longer have copies, so can only offer a Bravo for cleaning this up. ../Doug H 14:11, 25 April 2021 (EDT)
Sounds good. --GlennMcG 02:30, 26 April 2021 (EDT)
I'll have to check my copies. I'll try to remember to do that tonight after I get home. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 11:46, 26 April 2021 (EDT)
Also, here's a link to the series. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 11:47, 26 April 2021 (EDT)
A little late, but no objections here. Already done I see. Thanks! --Willem 14:49, 25 May 2021 (EDT)
I finally remembered to check my pubs and the split mentioned above is good. Thanks, Scifibones. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 12:16, 15 June 2021 (EDT)

Ray Bradbury Omnibus

I approved your submission of the Bradbury omnibus. I would leave the date as it is. We know it was published in 2011; my guess is that the first verifier got the date from Amazon or the publisher, but didn't note where it was from. It's unfortunate, but hardly surprising, that the original moderator didn't note the omission. Another choice is to use 2011-01-00, which is the date of publication given by the ISBN. I would accept either. Bob 15:02, 27 April 2021 (EDT)

Thanks Bob, I think I will use January 2011 since that agrees with my Amazon note.

Origin Cover

I approved you submission for Origin. You need to stop asking questions, like "do you want me to fix other pubs in this title?" Just do it and submit. You can wait until the first case is approved, then do other similar cases, or if you're willing to gamble on getting a bunch of rejections, just go ahead and do the corrections all at once. Personally, I would go for the first, but it's up to you. Bob 19:26, 3 May 2021 (EDT)

Understood John Scifibones 19:40, 3 May 2021 (EDT)

TM Symbols

Please be careful with removing TM from titles. It is one thing to remove from series or other places where it represents an actual trademark. It is another thing to remove from a story title where the author intended it to be part of the title. You seem to be tossing the baby out with the bath water. I have put all your recent edits of this type on hold. It will take some time to go through and sort them out. Also, when you change a title that is a verified pub, you should be notifying the active primary verifiers. Verifiers only receive automatic notice of publication changes, not title changes. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 21:26, 3 May 2021 (EDT)

I usually send notifications when submitting subjective type edits. When performing an edit to comply with a standard, removing series from a title for example, I frequently don't. I thought that was what the post on the moderator noticeboard was saying. If you want to reject all the edits in the batch, by all means, go ahead. I thought I was helping. John Scifibones 06:32, 4 May 2021 (EDT)

Foreigner Map Consolidation

Foreigner book 2 "Inheritor" and book 3 "Precursor" share a map. There are presently 5 different interior art titles for this one map.

I propose the following

  • Merge all the titles into "Mospheira and the Aishi'ditat (map)" dated at time of first publication
  • Insert language in the title notes stating this map appears in both the above books, but, is credited in only "Inheritor"
  • I am not going to import the map into any pub which doesn't already have one of the titles, unless specifically asked by a pubs verifier

John Scifibones 15:25, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

Sounds good to me. Thanks for doing this. Jack Sjmathis 08:47, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

Canadian Prices

You really should put a C in front of Canadian prices, like "C$39.95 in Canada". Common error. Bob 21:24, 13 May 2021 (EDT)

I never even enter the Canadian price, but, I'll start paying attention. I'll correct it in all my future verifications. Thanks for the alert, John Scifibones 21:39, 13 May 2021 (EDT)


Regarding this submission: You removed "DAW Collector’s #1018" from the notes. Was that intentional (it is not listed in your change description)? If so, is this not the correct number? -- JLaTondre (talk) 15:07, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

Since the information is in the Pub Series and Pub Series # cans, isn't it redundant? I guess if you are stating where in the book it is found, that might be different, but, that wasn't the case. BiomassBob pointed this out to me yesterday. That is why all the subsequent submissions have this change. What would you like me to do? John Scifibones 15:13, 14 May 2021 (EDT)
For that particular pub, it was not in the pub series fields. It should be, but the pub series field was added after many of these pubs were already in the database. Many have been moved, but not all. If you remove it from the notes, you need to double check it is in the pub series. I will approve the submission and then add the information to the pub series. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2021 (EDT)
The rest of the submissions for that series should be okay. The proper information is in the cans. John Scifibones 15:23, 14 May 2021 (EDT)

Terminal clone

Hello. I have your submission on hold, as I believe you should not have cloned the record but should have updated the already-existing 1st printing pub record here instead. Or am I missing something? Can you check? (and cancel your submission if I'm correct). Thanks! MagicUnk 11:04, 28 May 2021 (EDT)

If you look at the following discussion Terminal, I think you will see we agree. Looks like you found it! What would you like me to do? John Scifibones 12:13, 28 May 2021 (EDT)
OK, I've approved your submission, but I'd suggest to clearly indicate the other pub record is likely a (SF)BCE. And also, in your PV'd pub record I'd state that there's no (BCE) code on the back cover to be found. Regards, MagicUnk 11:48, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
This submisssion 4995243 takes care of my pub record. As far as the other publication record, is this what you are asking for? I'm a little unclear what you want. Appreciate your patience. John Scifibones 12:28, 30 May 2021 (EDT)

Lord of the Isles Series

John, I changed the publisher for these pubs back to Tor. Tor Fantasy is NOT a publisher. I see where you got it, but look at the copyright pages. Even the title page says the books are published by Tom Doherty Associates or Tor. If you wish, you can make Tor Fantasy a pub series for these books, but it is a series, not a publisher. I honestly would not unless there are other Tor books that are in that series, but have no objection if you wish to enter that series just for these Drake pubs. Bob 12:15, 2 June 2021 (EDT)

Bob, I disagree. The publisher page says "Tor" (over) "fantasy (over) the Tor fantasy shield logo (over) "Tom Doherty Associates Book". as opposed to the regular Tor logo (over) "Tor" (over) "Tom Doherty Associates Book". I specifically asked this question Here, to avoid this situation. I hope you are monitoring this page and will respond. John Scifibones 14:39, 2 June 2021 (EDT) P.S. You will note in the referenced question, I agreed with your present position.
Looking at Lord of the Isles, the only place Tor Fantasy appears is on the title page (I assume you mean the title page when you say publisher's page). That is a label for the pub series, not the publisher. The publisher is Tom Doherty Associates, it says so right below that silly shield. Look at the copyright page. "A Tor Book / Published by Tom Doherty Associates, Inc". And "Tor© is a registered trademark of Tom Doherty Associates, Inc." Not "Tor Fantasy is a trademark of Tom Doherty Associates". Then on the back flap of the dust jacket "A Tor Hardcover", not "A Tor Fantasy Hardcover". The publisher is Tor (or Tom Doherty Associates if you prefer). I guess I'm old school. I don't like Del Rey / Ballentine either. Sure, Ballentine owns Del Rey, but some idiot working for Ballentine insists on putting their name down as publisher. This new or Tordotcom is another silliness. Somebody insists their little fiefdom gets credit in the big corporation. In those cases, an argument can be made to use the silly publisher name. But not in this one. Tor Fantasy is a Tor series, not a publisher.Bob 16:09, 3 June 2021 (EDT)
You are correct, I was referring to the title page. Thanks for taking the time to reply. No hard feelings. John Scifibones 16:27, 3 June 2021 (EDT)
Nothing wrong with reasoned disagreements. I like working with you. Bob 12:18, 4 June 2021 (EDT)
Appreciate that John Scifibones 14:59, 4 June 2021 (EDT)

Apparition Literary Magazine, July 2020

I accepted Apparition Literary Magazine, July 2020, but had to make a couple of changes:

I also had a question on the interview. This is for an artist that didn't exist in the database. Is this an artist whose work appears in published genre publications? We only record interviews as interviews if their works are eligible for the database. Otherwise, it would be converted to an essay. -- JLaTondre (talk) 11:34, 11 July 2021 (EDT)

Ah, I see, she was the cover artist. I have added her credit to the publication. -- JLaTondre (talk) 11:41, 11 July 2021 (EDT)
I was trying to post an answer while you were editing my page. The cover artist is always the subject of an interview by Rebecca Bennett. Apparently I forgot to populate the cover art can. I would have caught it on my review after the submission was accepted. Yes I accidentally capitalized the and from, it happens John Scifibones 11:52, 11 July 2021 (EDT)

Rejection Letters

Regarding this submission: This sounds like a quote. If it is, it needs to be sourced. Similar to our policy on synopsis, we cannot just plagiarize text. If it is yours, however, then it needs to be more neutral. Let me know and I will approve and update. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 11:54, 11 July 2021 (EDT)

This is the description off the "about page" on the magazine website. You want me to add "per website"?John Scifibones 11:59, 11 July 2021 (EDT)
I took care of it, See updated text. But yes, if you are quoting text, please indicate it is a quote and include the source. I updated here and here also. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 12:04, 11 July 2021 (EDT)
I started putting these descriptions in to help determine if these are alternate names of existing authors. I'll source any I use, but will probably only put websites from now on. John Scifibones 12:12, 11 July 2021 (EDT)

Titania in Yellow

A quick question about this submission: is the award level really "No Winner -- Insufficient Votes" or is it a typo? It seems to be listed as one of the 19 nominees in this category on the Elgin page. Ahasuerus 21:51, 16 July 2021 (EDT)

Clearly a typo. s/b finalist. John Scifibones 21:58, 16 July 2021 (EDT)
Approved and updated. Thanks! Ahasuerus 23:55, 16 July 2021 (EDT)

"Poems That Could End the World"

I am afraid that this submission which would have added an award to "Poems That Could End the World" is no longer approvable since the title record doesn't exist any more. Ahasuerus 18:32, 20 July 2021 (EDT)

Haven't seen this before. The publication Poems That Could End the World still exists. Any hints on how to recover the title or at least see what happened?John Scifibones 21:25, 20 July 2021 (EDT)
It looks like it happened during the database crash earlier today. One of the affected database tables was updated and the other one wasn't. I had to fix the database manually and I also added the missing COLLECTION title to the publication record. Hopefully things are back to normal <fingers crossed> Ahasuerus 23:36, 20 July 2021 (EDT)
Thanks for restoring the title record. I did have to go in and change the author 5037933, you inadvertently entered the cover artist as the author. John Scifibones 07:31, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
Approved -- thanks for fixing the author! Ahasuerus 14:08, 21 July 2021 (EDT)

"Algorithmic Shapeshifting"

I have approved the addition of Contents items to "Algorithmic Shapeshifting". The Duplicate Finder identified 4 titles which may be duplicates of pre-existing records. In three cases there is a mismatch between titles types: POEM vs. SHORTFICTION. Most of the time it means that one of the title records has the wrong title type, but occasionally the same author has written a poem and a story with the same title, which requires a bit more digging. You may be already familiar with this issue, but I figured a heads-up wouldn't hurt :-) Ahasuerus 18:40, 20 July 2021 (EDT)

Thanks for bringing these to my attention

  • "A Self-Contained Riot of Lights" should have been imported along with the other seven titles which were. I have submitted this merge to get rid of the duplicate [4]
  • "The Tiny English-Hungarian Phrasebook for Visiting Extraterrestrials" classified as short fiction Here is incorrect. I found and earlier publication dated February 2013 Stone Telling 9 which clearly identifies it as a poem. I have submitted a merge [5] and will edit the date to 2013-02-00 after the merge is processed.
  • The title record for The Oracle of DARPA supplies a link to an issue of Jabberwocky. Looking at the work, I think it is poetry. The original submitter called it fiction. While there is room for debate, I have submitted this merge [6]
  • The Third Extension which appears in " Grievous Angel, September 19, 2017" is clearly identified as flash fiction. "Algorithmic Shapeshifting" is a collection of all poetry. Same title, two different forms. No change submitted.

John Scifibones 20:22, 20 July 2021 (EDT)

Thanks for checking! I have approved the linked submissions and added a note to "The Oracle of DARPA" record to indicate that the text is on the border between poetry and prose fiction. Hopefully it will be of use to future bibliographers if and when it gets reprinted in another publication.
Re: the two "The Third Extension" titles, I agree that it would be best to leave them as two separate records for now. It's conceivable that it's a borderline text like "The Oracle of DARPA", but we can't be sure until we find the source. I have added notes. Ahasuerus 20:53, 20 July 2021 (EDT)
I agree with the notes. After my admission that "The Oracle of DARPA" was borderline, I should have put that note in myself. John Scifibones 21:00, 20 July 2021 (EDT)

Deaf Republic

A quick question about Deaf Republic: the poem "Question" appears on page 28, then again on page 48. Then there is "Question (2)" on page 66. Is that intentional? Ahasuerus 19:25, 20 July 2021 (EDT)

No excuse, I missed one. Great catch! I submitted corrections so that the second occurrence is "Question (2)" and the last "Question (3)" John Scifibones 20:27, 20 July 2021 (EDT)
Approved -- thanks for checking! Ahasuerus 20:39, 20 July 2021 (EDT)

"Ten Things You Need to Know About My Imaginary Friend"

After approving a few of your submissions, I discovered that we have 2 versions of "Ten Things You Need to Know About My Imaginary Friend" by Allen Ashley, one a story and the other one a poem. Would you happen to know about them? Ahasuerus 17:30, 21 July 2021 (EDT)

I can say with 100% confidence that Ten Things You Need to Know About My Imaginary Friend is properly classified as poetry. In fact "Poetry by Allan Ashley" is noted on the title page. Looks like this title record, classified as a short story in BFS #5 comes from FictionMags per the note. No reason to think the editor (Chris J) did any other research. I have seen situations where FictionMags has erroneously classified poetry as prose, however, I have no basis to say that is the case here. I could not find the issue on the BFS website. I'm curious to see how you want to handle this. John Scifibones 18:17, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
Well, all we know about the SHORTFICTION title is what the secondary source is telling us, so there is no way to be sure. We can either:
  1. keep them as two separate records and mention that it's likely (but not certain) that the two records are for the same text; or
  2. merge the records and mention that it's possible (although unlikely) that the merged record covers two different texts
Whichever way we decide to handle it, we will want to explain where our data comes from and why we think that it's likely (but not certain) that the two texts are the same. Given the apparent probabilities involved, I think option 2 would be a better fit. What do you think? Ahasuerus 18:35, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
I submitted the merge you suggested in option two. Note to be added, thanks for your help John Scifibones 19:00, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
Sounds good. I have approved the first submission. Ahasuerus 19:07, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
Take a look at my title note edit. It won't hurt my feelings if you want to rework it. John Scifibones 19:31, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
Thanks! I have made a few changes -- hopefully they make sense :) Ahasuerus 20:23, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
Looks good.. John Scifibones 20:25, 21 July 2021 (EDT)

Terrie Leigh Relf

A few questions about Terrie Leigh Relf since you seem to be at least somewhat familiar with this author's work:

  1. Do the three "Sijo" poems constitute a series?
Apparently Sijo is a form of stylized Korean poetry, 3 lines in length, averaging 14-16 syllables per line (for a poem total of 44-46 syllables). Somewhat similar to Haiku. These three poems are from Minimalism A Handbook of Minimalist Genre Poetic Forms. basically 3 examples of Sijo poetry. I would have titled them individually by their first phrase, in quotes. So my answer is no, not a series.
  1. Are "Sister of the Blood Moon" and "Sisters of the Blood Moon" related?
I can't offer much help on this one. You have the poetry vs. prose question we had before, plus a possible typo in one or the other title. The one thing we know for sure is Sister of the Blood Moon is poetry based on the the publication and the PV should be able to confirm the spelling. With so many unknowns, I would leave them as separate titles , but add notes to each referencing the possible connection to the other.
  1. Are "Ode to Yon Glizan Orbs, or No?" and "Ode to Yon Gliesan Orbs, or No?" related?
Absolutely. This title is merely a typo from when "The 2015 Rhysling Anthology" was entered. It was spelled correctly in the SFPA archive. This merge will correct it.

Ahasuerus 21:29, 21 July 2021 (EDT)

Hope this helps. John Scifibones 23:20, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
Thanks for looking into this! Checking Edit History, I see that the Contents titles were added to "The 2015 Rhysling Anthology" by the primary verifier, User:Hkauderer, in 2018. He is currently active, so I am going to ask him to check the spelling of the title. Ahasuerus 11:57, 22 July 2021 (EDT)
Your Welcome!, ask anytime. I've learned something every time. John Scifibones 12:26, 22 July 2021 (EDT)
Unfortunately, User:Hkauderer, the primary verifier of The 2015 Rhysling Anthology: The Best Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror Poetry of 2014, hasn't logged in since mid-July. Hopefully, he will come back soon-ish and respond, but for now I am going to set up these two titles are variants and reject the original submission. Better safe than sorry :-) Ahasuerus 11:24, 26 August 2021 (EDT)
I'm glad to have them off my queue. However, It still seems illogical for the previously stated reason. Doesn't this imply that typos by inactive users cannot be corrected? John Scifibones 11:36, 26 August 2021 (EDT)
Well, the big question here is whether it was a typo on the title page of the book -- in which case we create a variant -- or whether it was our editor's data entry error, in which case it needs to be corrected. In most cases, it's the latter, but we have also seen (literally) thousands of typos in published books. In some of the cheaper pulps, up to 50% (sic!) of the stories require notes about the "interesting" ways in which the editors misspelled author names and/or titles on the title page, on the cover and/or in the table of contents. Here is a randomly picked example -- Dynamic Science Stories, April-May 1939.
In this particular case, Amazon's Look Inside shows the "Acknowledgments" page, which spells this title "Ode to Yon Gliesan Orbs, or No?", so it looks like the typo was in the 2015 Rhysling Anthology. Ahasuerus 12:17, 26 August 2021 (EDT)
Ahasuerus, thanks for responding, I hope you don't mind continuing this for a little longer. First, I don't disagree that you have handled it according to present standards. Interesting in this case, the SFPA publication disagrees with their own website which purports to show the anthology's TOC. I'm curious, have there been past discussions on alternative methods of handling minor spelling or punctuation errors? I have become fond of title notes, in part from working with you. My preference would be a title note highlighting the spelling or punctuation error and a similar note in the specific publication. Translations, title wording changes in subsequent publications, alternate name usage seem more significant than the omission of a comma, misplaced apostrophe, or a slight misspelling. John Scifibones 15:30, 26 August 2021 (EDT)
Oh, sure, we have had many discussions of our data entry standards -- Rules and standards discussions and its archived sub-pages are full of them. Typically, there are two competing priorities:
  • Capturing information exactly as it appears in publications, which facilitates database searches. In this case, if we were to merge the two records, a search on "Gliesan" would fail, which would make no sense to an ISFDB user with a copy of the 2015 Rhysling Anthology in his or her hands.
  • "Regularizing" certain aspects of our data like capitalization.
These two priorities are ever in conflict. For titles and author names, we use the "Variant Title"/"Alternate Name" system to accommodate both of them at the same time: we capture the data "as is" and then link records in a way that ensures that our users know that we are talking about the same work/author. For other record types -- series, publishers, publication series, etc -- we don't have similar systems, so we are forced to adopt admittedly complicated data entry conventions. Ideally, we would have software-based solutions for all of these issues, but they would require a significant amount of development work :-( Ahasuerus 19:09, 26 August 2021 (EDT)

Witch Doctrine

Thanks for submitting the Contents items for Witch Doctrine! I have approved the submission and changed a couple of things as per Look Inside:

  • "On Summer Southern Ghosts" changed to "On Southern Summer Ghosts"
  • "Ghost Coming to Trms" to "Ghost Coming to Terms"

I have also capitalized the word "as" in "Witch As Healer" and "Ghost As Housekeeper" as per Help:Screen:NewPub#Title.

Re: your note about importing existing titles separately, are you aware that the "Import/Export Contents" option lets you import existing titles and add new ones at the same time? It can save quite a bit of time since you can do everything in one submission. In the meantime, I have added "The House Says I Love You" to this pub. Thanks again! Ahasuerus 12:23, 26 July 2021 (EDT)

Thanks for the corrections. I did know you can add manual merges while importing existing titles. You have to admit transposing whole words is much more impressive than just a two letter transposition! John Scifibones 16:20, 26 July 2021 (EDT)


I have your "heliophobia"/"Heliophobia" submissions on hold. Help:Screen:NewPub#Title says:

  • Titles should have case regularized according to language-specific rules unless there is some specific evidence that the author intended certain letters to be in a specific case.

In this case the publisher-provided description at as well as this collection's publisher page use an all-lowercase version of the title. Would you agree? Ahasuerus 12:30, 26 July 2021 (EDT)

I don't have a problem either way. I did see where the Elgin Award editor chair "Josh Brown" regularized it. Here. John Scifibones 12:42, 26 July 2021 (EDT)
OK, I have left it all-lowercase and added notes to the title record and the publication record. "When in doubt -- add Notes" :-) Ahasuerus 16:24, 26 July 2021 (EDT)
Hopefully, someone will have access to a copy and can verify what is actually on the title page. John Scifibones 16:28, 26 July 2021 (EDT)

Dark Parchments: Midnight Curses and Verses

I have approved the addition of Contents items to this pub and changed "Raven-Lass On Patrol" to "Raven-Lass on Patrol". A quick question about "Imprisioned" -- is it spelled that way in the book or is it spelled "Imprisoned"? Finally, I have approved the date change for this poem, but could you please add a note explaining where it first appeared? TIA! Ahasuerus 18:14, 30 July 2021 (EDT)

"Imprisoned" was a mistake on my part. Not only am I adding a note on "Mother Daemon", but on all the titles which were previously published and which we do not have a record in the db. You might have noted the manual dates I added . There are other titles which are getting notes as well. I needed to have the titles created in order to add the notes. Thanks for approving. John Scifibones 18:23, 30 July 2021 (EDT)
All the intended edits have been submitted, 5044664 thru 5044650 & 5044671. Take another look at Mother Daemon, I'm not sure we need a note. I can put one that says the poem was first published in "Dark Parchments: Midnight Curses and Verses", but the pub is listed right there. What do you think? John Scifibones 18:53, 30 July 2021 (EDT)
Oh, the title date and the publication date match now. Never mind then :-)
Re: "La Baignade Dans L'ombre", I approved the submission and then changed "Although this title is in French, this author writes in English" to "Although this title is in French, the text is in English". We have a number of author who primarily use one language but occasionally write stories using another language, so the "working language" of the author is not dispositive.
Re: the rest of the submissions in the queue, I am afraid I am poorly positioned to work on them at the moment. It's 9 pm on the East Coast and my brains turn to mush early these days. (One of the joys of getting older...) Hopefully another moderator will get to them soon. Ahasuerus 20:59, 30 July 2021 (EDT)
I'll incorporate the change you made to "La Baignade Dans L'ombre" into the other three foreign language titles. Thank you John Scifibones 21:04, 30 July 2021 (EDT)
Thanks! Ahasuerus 21:23, 30 July 2021 (EDT)

Dickson's 'Three to Dorsai' 1st printing code

Hi, John. I've just acquired a copy of sold by a reputable vendor as 1st printing ... but its gutter code is on a different page, and slightly different, than the ISFDB record. Instead of "39R" it's "39 R" (space between number & letter), and instead of page 532 it's on bottom of page 529. I'm checking with the other active verifier, also, to determine whether I should note mine as a variant or correct the current pub record. Please let me know if your copy matches mine or the current record. Thanks. Markwood 11:12, 11 August 2021 (EDT)

Greetings. Look again at the publication record. You will see that I am The 6th primary verifier [PV6]. Under pub notes you will see "• Known reprint codes: "R39" [verified]; "S10" and "S19" printed in 1977; "U7" [PV6] February 1978; no code and the SFBC# on the back cover [verified] at least '86". Therefore, my copy agrees in all respects except the print code is U7. Yes the code is on 532. Notice how we account for different print codes, we don't variant. Same for other minor differences, just note them. I would be suspicious of a copy with the code on the wrong page. Let me know if you have any other questions. John Scifibones 13:19, 11 August 2021 (EDT)

Bless the Lord My Soul

Can you check this one - are there two different poems titled like that on pages 9 and 10? Thanks!

PS: And one small note: we always capitalize "As". I fixed it in a few titles :) Annie 12:54, 12 August 2021 (EDT)

This submission will fix it. This is the kind of error that is easy to catch post processing, but, sometimes eludes me on entry. (I just run the duplicate checker, usually on similar mode, then investigate the differences). Thanks for correcting the lower case a in as. John Scifibones 13:42, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
Would you mind processing this submission? It seems to have been skipped earlier today. John Scifibones 13:44, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
I approved the first change. Unfortunately the second one is toast - it errored out for some reason (happens once in a blue moon - the last one we had was in 2021-04-09 - it usually means bad timing - either your connection went weird or the server was restarting or something weird like that - leaving the whole submission in limbo). Which means that we cannot process it - to reject or approve it - and if you look in your own errored out list, it will be there. It needs to be redone. Let me know if you want me to do it (basically copy it field by field) or if you would do it. Annie 14:05, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
I'll take care of it, it's my responsibility. Thanks for checking and offering to do I. John Scifibones 14:09, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
Resubmitted Now I'm worried about all the other books in the series, I-IV are in the queue. hope they don't do the same thing. John Scifibones 15:33, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
If it is going to error out this way, it happens when you post, not during approval. Basically something goes wrong while the system tries to add the book to the queue at all - so it just marks it as problem and leave it out. If it is because of something that happens after it is posted, it is the dreaded Force reject - we still cannot do anything to save it but at least you see the rejection. I do not see any others in the error list so the others are up for review. Annie 16:35, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
Thanks for checking. It was in my queue from 2021-08-10 19:21:53 to at least 13:44, 12 August 2021 when I posted the link above. It died sometime after that. One of those things. John Scifibones 17:01, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
That's a new one... Annie 17:04, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
While I have your attention, I'm working on The Seven Yards of Sorrow The table of contents entries are all 'Sentence case' (lower case with proper nouns capitalized), surrounded by ()'s. I am substituting ""'s for the ()"as. Any problem? John Scifibones 17:09, 12 August 2021 (EDT)
Regularize the case - this sounds like house/editor style and not author choice - so if they get reprinted, who knows what capitalization will be there. :) We treat ' and " the same way so either way works. Annie 18:46, 12 August 2021 (EDT)


Added notes and external IDs to your PVd Starfarers.Jim 23:22, 22 August 2021 (EDT)

Two minor points Jim
  1. "Edited by Robert Gleason." I would modify this to something like "Edited by Robert Gleason, credited in the Acknowledgments"
  2. For the two stories which have been modified, note that while the Acknowledgments refer to chapters by Roman Numerals, the actual book uses regular notation.
What do you think? Good job, John Scifibones 10:24, 25 August 2021 (EDT)

Dorothy Porter

A quick note about this submission. As per Help:Screen:AuthorData:

  • Use the format "Lastname, Firstname Middlenames", with all names being given in full. The reason for this format are names like "Patrick Nielsen Hayden" where you can't readily tell whether the last name is "Hayden" or "Nielsen Hayden."

I have approved the submission and changed the format of her last name to "Porter, Dorothy Featherstone". Ahasuerus 11:17, 23 August 2021 (EDT)

Sorry about that. Thanks for fixing it. John Scifibones 11:21, 23 August 2021 (EDT)
No worries -- four eyes see more than two :-) Ahasuerus 11:52, 23 August 2021 (EDT)

979 ISBNs

When adding a book with a 979 ISBN and it has an ASIN, add the ASIN as well. For 978 ISBNs, the ASIN is ISBN10 so when we use that, the Amazon links work - so we do not record these as ASINs. For 979 books, the ISBN is a random string starting with B so if we want working links, we need the string recorded as ASIN. Thanks! Annie 16:13, 23 August 2021 (EDT)

I see you also had to regularize the case for the subtitle of the pub generating the comment above. thanks.John Scifibones 16:31, 23 August 2021 (EDT)

2021 Dwarf Stars

Hello - I saw that you've been creating and/or updating the various entries about the Science Fiction & Fantasy Poetry Association's awards, which is awesome! However, I was checking out the 2021 Dwarf Stars page you've been editing and noticed there were a few omissions from the list of finalists. Is there any chance you could add them to the entry, hopefully in advance of the winners being announced (which could be later today or in the next couple of days)? The missing poems and poets are as follows (untitled poems are listed first):

"brain software warning" by Julie Bloss Kelsey; "evil comes always" by Juan Manuel Perez; "happy hour" by LeRoy Gorman; "in a cracked mirror" by Julie Bloss Kelsey; "photons in knit and purl" by Kimberley Nugent; "right at home" by LeRoy Gorman; "the winged demons come" by Greg Fewer; "wet market" by John Hawkhead; How to Tidy the Asteroids by Mary Soon Lee; Runaway Greenhouse Effect by David C. Kopaska-Merkel

Thanks for all that you are doing! Best wishes, --Explorer1000 11:46, 4 September 2021 (EDT)

Greetings Explorer1000, thanks for your interest. I am aware of which finalists are missing.
  • Your list above contains several which are included, I have underlined those.
  • "happy hour" by LeRoy Gorman and "photons in knit and purl" by Kimberley Nugent were published in the February 2020 issue of "Scifaikuest Online". You may or may not know, this was the last issue before the publisher went belly up, taking the web site with it. Fortunately "Scifaikuest online" lives and is now published by Hiraeth Publishing. I went ahead and created dummy records for these two and submitted them. You should see them in a couple of days. If they are ever reprinted, the dummies can be replaced.
  • I'll take another look and see what I can do for the remaining five.
  • I see you are new to the ISFDB, what makes you so focused on this? I'm glad you're interested, I have put a lot of time into it. John Scifibones 14:15, 4 September 2021 (EDT)
    Thanks John! It's been a few years since I've used a Wiki editor - your use of a list is useful here, so I'll follow suit!
    • Oops! I didn't see that three of those poems were included after all. However, since the titles of those three underlined poems are first lines shouldn't they be grouped with all the other haiku forms rather than with the formally titled poems?
    • Yes, Scifaikuest used to be published by Alban Lake. I was just checking its URLs for last year's issues of the online version of the magazine (which I'd favorited) but now find that all of the Web pages concerned have been deleted. They used to do this on the Alban Lake site as well so that back issues can now only be found on the Way Back Machine. I don't know whether linking to the archived pages is acceptable for the ISFDB's purposes though. For example, this is the link for the February '20 issue (as it appeared in May of last year):
    • I am indeed new to the ISFDB! My focus on this issue is that I'm one of the finalists for the Dwarf Stars Award (although I'm pretty certain I won't place among the winners) and my piece ("the winged demons come") is one of those not listed. Incidentally, the publication in which that poem first appeared - Cough Syrup - disappeared earlier this year. I have PDFs of vol. 1, issue #2 and the poetry portion of issue #3, which I could send to you, if you like. It would be very hard (if not at all possible) to track these down online, regrettably. Greg --Explorer1000 15:41, 4 September 2021 (EDT)
    • Greg, good luck, maybe the results will surprise you! Notice that I went back and indented our responses. This is the recommended practice on the site. Basically add one : every time you post a response on any thread. Makes it easier to read. Bad example on my part. You are correct regarding the three titles. However, we are bibliographers, not editors. We show what is printed, right or wrong. If you look at The Math Haiku Project post, you will see standalone, case regularized titles. That is what we show for Julie Bloss Kelsey's two titles. I should have substituted quotes for the angle brackets that "Eye to the Telescope used". I have submitted a change, Good catch. I appreciate the link for the 2020-02-00 issue of "Scifaikuest Online". I'll add the issue to the database. I'd be glad to enter in the Cough Syrup 3 issue into the database. I'm having a bit of trouble getting the software to confirm my e-mail. If you have a public website, I can correspond to directly. John Scifibones 17:01, 4 September 2021 (EDT)
      Thanks John! I may yet be surprised as you suggest. I note your point about indentations - I had forgotten how that was done.
      • OK, I see that with respect to Bloss Kelsey's two poems, they were given titles based on their first lines when they were initially published, so I can see how that would need to be conserved even though the Dwarf Stars anthology didn't retain the titles.
      • Glad to be able to help with the Feb 2020 online issue URL. Will you need to update the URLS for the later issues of 2020 with additional archive links now that these pages have been deleted?
      • Here are links to my Dropbox for the two issues of Cough Syrup (I hope it's OK to provide them here):
      • Cough Syrup 1(2) Summerzine 2019 [7]
        Cough Syrup 1(3) Netzach Poetry Section Spring 2020 [8]
        I'll need to remove these files once you have downloaded them as I'm getting low on space there. Greg --Explorer1000 20:23, 4 September 2021 (EDT)
        I have downloaded them, go ahead and clear your box. I'll enter them tomorrow. It's not necessary to link existing issues. They are complete and stand as they are. I will leave the old link as they can be used to access the internet archive if someone is interested. Appreciate your help. John Scifibones 22:35, 4 September 2021 (EDT)
        Thanks again, John! And you're welcome! I've removed the files from Dropbox now. I think I should point out, btw, that the Netzach poetry section of Cough Syrup #3 was complemented by separately published prose and art sections (I regret not having downloaded these as well). I mention this in case you want to add a note about this for the entry in the database - that Netzach is only one part of three for issue #3. Hopefully, in time, somebody may be able to add the missing sections to the database. I take your point that people could look up the dead links on the Archive rather than adding links to its snapshots. Best wishes, Greg --Explorer1000 11:47, 5 September 2021 (EDT)
        I read the Editor's Rant when I was entering the poetry issue. I included a brief statement in the notes that issue 3 was published in three parts. No harm in pointing it out. Everything has been submitted. The only dummy record I created is for John Hawkhead. I couldn't locate anything for "The British Haiku Society 2020 Anthology". All the additions should show up in a couple days. Only thing I have left to do is enter "Cough Syrup 2". John Scifibones 12:05, 5 September 2021 (EDT)
        The winners have been announced (as expected, I'm not among them - the winners had several nominations in the first place, I believe) on the SFPA's Facebook page (! I was thinking that their FB group might be good for reaching out to poets/editors of hard-to-find chapbooks and magazines. I saw that some of the updates to the 2021 Dwarf Stars page have been approved and that the Feb 2020 Scifaikuest Online entry is now online.
        The three missing are in the submission queue. Cough Syrup, Rune, and Hollowscream. Just waiting for them to be accepted. John Scifibones 15:45, 5 September 2021 (EDT)
        I saw that all the remaining items in the submission queue have been approved. Thanks for adding all of this stuff - it's awesome to see the new and updated entries! It's clear that you were very busy in the last couple of days, according to the Recent Edits list. Just one teensy observation: shouldn't Kerouac's "the bottom of my shoes" bear a 2020 date? Best wishes, Greg--Explorer1000 20:09, 5 September 2021 (EDT)
        I believe it was first published in "The Book of Haiku" by Jack Kerouac, edited by Regina Weinreich, 2003 Penguin Books. If I'm incorrect, let me know. I am adding a title note with this information. It's been great working with you. Don't be a stranger. John Scifibones 20:25, 5 September 2021 (EDT)
        Oh, of course! It's a reprint in Cough Syrup, and it's just that there's no entry for The Book of Haiku as yet. Sorry for the confusion. It's been great working with you too. If I can help with anything else, let me know. I was thinking of doing some entries on issues of Tightbeam as time allows. Do I need to OK this with anyone first? Greg --Explorer1000 18:13, 6 September 2021 (EDT)

        (unindent) Don't forget to sign your posts with the four tilde's. No, you don't need anyone's permission. That would be a great project, looks like we only have one issue in the db. John Scifibones 17:15, 6 September 2021 (EDT)

        Oops! Signed it (although the time stamp would be inaccurate now)! Yeah, I saw that the coverage of Tightbeam is rather limited but I don't know that I'd want to work on issues dating from as far back as the '40s! But I think the last two decades merit covering initially, at least. Greg --Explorer1000 18:13, 6 September 2021 (EDT)
        Three tilde's is just username allowing you to manually add a time or not as you choose . John Scifibones 18:28, 6 September 2021 (EDT)
        Hi John - just thought I'd update you about Dwarf Stars (and I hope it's OK to return to a discussion that's two months' old). I submitted an entry for the 2021 anthology, which is awaiting approval at the moment. In the process, I found that the name of the poet who wrote "on a pirate ship" is actually Lana M. 'Rochel (I own a copy of the anthology so I can confirm this is how her name appears in the book), whereas you have given it as "Lana M'Rochel" in the Dwarf Stars Award page. I don't know how her name is spelled in the journal in which the poem originally appeared (The Poetry Pea Journal of Haiku and Senryu, Autumn 2020) but it is usually Lana M. 'Rochel anywhere it appears online (e.g. her twitter account).--Explorer1000 23:12, 8 November 2021 (EST)
        Greg, Looks like you are correct. Thanks for catching this. If you edit the title record for "on a pirate ship", it will fix the author bibliography and the awards page automatically. Also, It's fine to post on this or any thread. Old threads never die, they only slowly unravel. John Scifibones 08:21, 9 November 2021 (EST)
        LOL re: '...they only slowly unravel'. So they have a long, lingering, death without any prospect of relief or closure! :P OK. I've followed your advice about updating the title for "on a pirate ship". Greg--Explorer1000 11:22, 9 November 2021 (EST)

        variant vs merge

        (unindent) Hi John. Just wondering how to deal with Julie Bloss Kelsey's poems "brain software warning" and "in a cracked mirror" - as they appear in the anthology. My guess is that they should be seen as variants of the original titled poems - "Brain Software Warning" and "Cracked Mirror" - and so shouldn't be merged. If so, will the variants show the award nominations? --Explorer1000 18:34, 14 November 2021 (EST)

        Hi Greg, The title "in a cracked mirror" should be made a variant of "Cracked Mirror". You merge "brain software warning" into "Brain Software Warning", we don't variant by case, as I was reminded just last week (I know you aren't going to like merging them). You won't have to do anything with the awards. In hindsight, do you see how much easier it would have been to import all the titles? You knew all but three existed. You could have entered the entire publication in two submissions. One creating the anthology and entering the three titles which didn't exist. The second, importing all the existing titles. I didn't look at your talk page, perhaps one of the moderators already mentioned it. If so, sorry for repeating. Just trying to help. John Scifibones 20:06, 14 November 2021 (EST)
        Thanks, John, for the info on the different treatment for the two poems. I've only learned about importing in the last day or two from reading the relevant help page. Nobody mentioned it otherwise to me so you are the first to do so. :) It wouldn't have occurred to me to import the titles from the award entry as my reading around this was to import them from one publication to another. Even if I had imported the titles, I would still have had to sort them according to the anthology's pagination/list of contents (I guess by merely adding the respective page numbers). But I'll be using this function for different editions of a book in the future. And no problem with the help - that's why I asked. Greg --Explorer1000 21:09, 14 November 2021 (EST)
        Actually "brain software warning" should be varianted to Brain Software Warning, not merged - one of them contains quotes in its name, the other does not. There is punctuation difference (the quotes) in addition to the capitalization - and that changes things. We merge if the only difference is the case (As we regularize for case); when there is punctuation difference, we variant.I hope you had not merged others based on this advice - if the quotes are in there as part of the title, they all need varianting, not merging to something without quotes. Annie 14:26, 16 November 2021 (EST)
        OK. Noted. Thanks Annie. This was the only instance where I merged a title without quotes in one case and with quotes in another. The help page about [merging] does state that "the titles should match exactly" but it doesn't give examples in the case of characters like inverted commas. It talks more about the author's name and where the words in a title are different, which both require varianting. Anyway, now I know for sure what to do with a title that includes an exclamation mark in its fist publication but omits it in a subsequent publication (something that happened with one of my own stories). Greg--Explorer1000 17:17, 16 November 2021 (EST)
        That's because the quotes issue is being already taken care of when adding the title. Quotes are simplified - we treat all types as being the same. See here: "Quotes can be entered either as single (') or double (") quotes. They are considered interchangeable typographical artifacts and no variant titles should be created for versions of the same story that use different types of quotes."
        So regardless of what kinds of weird quotes they use in a book, pick one type and stick to it when you enter it and if another editor uses the other type, someone loses on a merge. Hope that makes sense :) Annie 17:35, 16 November 2021 (EST)
        Annie, Good to know that quotes make a difference. No I haven't merged any on that advice, I didn't even merge that one. Moderator merged. In their defense, there weren't quotes in either title. However, the text was not available in either publication so who knows if there should have been.

        (unindent)Using the following untitled poem as an example. I'll list some of the possible ways I have seen works recorded. (Based on quite a few works and publications)

        light sunny breezes
        etching lines in the red sand
        dust devils on Mars
        1. "light sunny breezes" - method I would use in this example
        2. light sunny breezes
        3. Light Sunny Breezes
        4. untitled "light sunny breezes"
        5. "light sunny breezes etching lines in the red sand" - I have no problem with this one either

        Based on the above, we would merge 2 & 3, and variant all other combinations. Question, Wouldn't we be varianting based on the submitter rather than the actual work? What I'm really suggesting, is the need to define a standard way of recording poetry titles.

        Open a discussion in R&S to figure out naming for unnamed poetry if you want. :) I prefer untitled (“first line goes here”) but I don’t work much with poetry so it does not come up often. But yes. If these are added that way, 2 and 3 are merged, the others are varianted. Without a rule, we don’t discount titles - not all that look like they may be will be that way because they are untitled first. So we work with how the submitter added the poem (if there is a disagreement, it needs to be solved on that level.) Annie 22:13, 16 November 2021 (EST)