User talk:Norman

Welcome!

Hello, Norman, and welcome to the ISFDB Wiki! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• Help pages
• Field-by-field guide to entering new publications into the database
• Help:Getting Started
• What the ISFDB Wiki is for
• FAQ
• Wiki editing help - Tips on how to use the wiki-specific features when editing wiki pages.
• Wiki Conventions - How things are usually done on this wiki.
• Help:How to upload images to the ISFDB wiki

Note: Image uploading isn't entirely automated. You're uploading the files to the wiki which will then have to be linked to the database by editing the publication record.

Please be careful in editing publications that have been primary verified by other editors. See Help:How to verify data#Making changes to verified pubs. But if you have a copy of an unverified publication, verifying it can be quite helpful. See Help:How to verify data for detailed information.

I hope you enjoy editing here! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will insert your name and the date. If you need help, check out the community portal, or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Annie 13:31, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Changing verified publication

Hello,

I put 3 of your updates on hold - as these are primary verified (aka a person with a book actually looked at them), the practice is to clear this kind of changes with them before changing. I had pinged him (as he is in Europe, he may be gone for the day so it may take a bit) but as soon as he responds, they will be dealt with. Thanks for submitting them and welcome again! Annie 13:34, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Or it will take only a few minutes. The PV confirmed so I approved them. One thing: when changing the date of a publication, you also need to change the dates of all the contents inside. I did that for these 3 but for future reference, when you press Edit publication, if you are changing a date, look down the page and make sure you change all the places which show that date. If they are greyed out, then it may need to be done one by one (it means they are used elsewhere) unless the date makes sense in the other publications. Thanks for finding and fixing these! Annie 14:19, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Thanks for your support. --Norman 12:17, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark

Hello, as you've already seen the one existing publication of the original series is entered as a CHAPBOOK, not a novel. This is because the fiction is only of novella length. However, it would seem that the types of publication would be magazines (analogous to 'Perry Rhodan' or 'Die Terranauten': as with those, there was at some time additional material introduced, I tend to think. Do you happen to know what types of additional material this was?). I have put your submission on hold while waiting for an answer. Thanks for becoming active. Stonecreek 12:30, 3 November 2019 (EST)

'Ren Dhark' is very simular to 'Perry Rhodan'. Same format (size & material); same length of novel; same weekly distribution; same population to reach; SF-genre. Page 1: image & titel (colored); page 2: editorial-staff is contacting the readers; greeting; news; etc.; page 3: black/white printing; start of the story; page 65: end of story & impressum; page 66: last page of black/white printing; preview to the following story next week; page 67: glossary with some explanations in the story context; last page: advertising. i hope this can help you to decide. --Norman 13:24, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Since #21 in the middle of the magazine there they integrated 4, or 8 pages called: 'World Science News' including articles with real and actual technical news from different authors. --Norman 13:34, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Since this is a magazine, I rejected your submission to add this as a novel. Else there'd be a lot of cleaning-up to do afterwards. If you want to continue, I strongly recommend to study the help section(s) on magazines first. You may also take orientation with other magazines of a similar type (for example Perry Rhodan).

In any case the following is essential:

• For magazines, the rule is to use the actual page count - including the cover (and the back cover).
• You will have to record who's actually credited as editor(s) in the respective issue. (For Perry Rhodan there was a long period of time when nobody was credited as editor, and we do record this as 'uncredited'.)
• You will have to give sources or an explanation for the date of publication and for pieces of art (especially the cover artist). Stonecreek 03:46, 4 November 2019 (EST)

#1 and #3: I'm able to give these informations, because I'm happy to own all 98 booklets of this first edition. #2: I didn't understand what it means "credited as editor(s)". Do you want more information about the responsible persons who has issued these stories by "Kelter"? This can i deliver from the copyright-section. --Norman 10:54, 5 November 2019 (EST)

That's exactly what I meant: As with Perry Rhodan any credit for the editor(s) will likely appear in the copyright section. For the latter series from 1961 to 1995 there was no one credited there (but K. H. Scheer and William Voltz were for some time on the respective intoductory page for the novella). We do record what is stated in a given magazine issue and variant then to the actual editors (for example, with PR Kurt Bernhardt and Günter M. Schelwokat also had their say in the first 20 years or so). Stonecreek 12:18, 5 November 2019 (EST)

With your information I have transformed the existing Ren Dhark #38 into a magazine, since the verifier is no longer participating, and was himself not sure about the character of the publication. If you find the time, please have a look into it. Thanks, Stonecreek 12:26, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Changing existing records

Per our etiquette you will have to ask primary verifiers (at least the ones that are still active) if you want to change existing records, and else will have to add a note to the moderator for the reason of changing. Since this was not the case, I have rejected several of your submissions (the cases in question were also unfounded). Stonecreek 03:49, 4 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks for your advice. But this was one of my first edits here and your answer and your etiquette is a little bit frustrating me. Anyway, what does this mean ? Whom i have to ask for this subject? --Norman 10:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Well you will be able to primary verify a publication if you own it (or verify it transiently, if you have your hands on it only for a short time). This information does appear at the bottom of the publication entry, and any information connected with it has to be added (or at least should have been controlled) by one of the verifiers, so the persons are sort of responsible for the entry. Stonecreek 12:22, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark, #38: Geheimnisvolles Tofirit

Hi Norman,

Let's work on this submission together. I will keep it on hold until we resolve whatever needs clarifying, then I will approve and make the needed changes. Then you can try with the next issue. :)

• Catalog IDs are a little unusual for magazines but it happens. Where is this one coming from?
• The change of the editor of the series will require the change of the editor of the magazine as well. Are the two credited as editors inside of the issue or are they different type of editors?
• NONFICTION is only for books which are non-fiction. Inside of any book, a non-fiction item is recorded as an essay.
• Is the title on page 65 really in English? Is it supposed to be in English? And is it really a picture?
• unknown is used for cases where we are taking data from external sources; if you have the magazine (you mentioned so?), and there is no credit, we use "uncredited" instead.
• Are any of these essay in all the issues (with the same name)? If so, we will need to disambiguate.

Let me know if you have any questions or something is unclear and once we confirm these, we will move to the next step :) Annie 18:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)

It's very nice to get your support, Annie. Thanks. Here my answers:

• Catalog ID: I thought it would be helpful to create a Catalog ID similar as for 'Perry Rhodan'. But actually it's not urgent. Later perhaps, because there exits a 2nd and 3rd-edition of the 98 magazine with different covers, articles and so on. And in the Ren-Dhark-univers there exist 6 paperbacks (from Kelter), and five different hardcover series (from another editor)
• editor: perhaps i was wrong adding a second person. The editior of the Ren Dhark series is Kurt Brand (the one and only). But the resonsible manager of Kelter (for all publications) was in 1967 Gerhard Melchert.
• Using Essay it's ok
• Page 65: the title is not in english. This page has no title; it contains two columns; on the left an text from editoral-staff is describing the title and the story content which will be next week within the series. on the rigth side there is an graphical illustration (rocket starting into the space).
• using 'uncredited' is ok
• the essay "World Science News" has always the same name. It is similar to Perry Rhodan-Report.

--Norman 12:12, 6 November 2019 (EST)

OK then. Approved and did a few changes:

• Moved the name of Gerhard Melchert here. Feel free to edit to change the description. And removed it from the magazine you tried to add it to.
• The catalog ID can stay - I was more curious than anything. You may want to write an explanation about its formation up on the series level (where I moved the editor name).
• Fixed the EDITORs link (as it is an yearly record, it does not get a month or a day
• Fixed the uncredited and the essays.
• See what I did for that "next week" piece. Does this make sense? We can change it any way you prefer but this seems to be closer to what it is?
• What about the essay "Technikon"? Do we need to disambiguate or is it one off?

Let me know if I missed something. Once you like it, you should really verify it so people know who to ask questions about it (if any). :) Annie 12:24, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Hi! If Melchert is credited in the copyright section he has to be stated as editor within the entry!

Re the 'Preview': We do record what is stated, and I can't imagine that there's an English title stated. Also, usually we don't index the previews.

For both points (editor & preview) please take a look at Die Terranauten. Schmitz is credited in the copyright section of each issue. And one more for the preview: Lührs seems to be the artist for Ren Dhark, is he really also credited for the preview?

I did some updating: putting the titles that are part of a series into the latter. Stonecreek 14:09, 6 November 2019 (EST)

I'm sorry to be so unprecise. But the rules and the data-structure of isfdb is complex for a beginner (in isfdb.org) like me. Perhaps my approach of the subjet Ren Dhark is too oversized. But my intension is to document this missing series for isfdb, because it was in the 60s the #2 after Perry Rhodan in Germany.

Gerhard Melchert is credited in the copyright section with the role 'Verlagsleiter' and 'Lektorat' (publishing manager & editorial office). But also "Otto Melchert" is mentioned as "Verleger" (publisher).

You can skip the preview page totally. It exist, yes but it is no big issue to let it unmentioned; it is a weekly-different and short text-sequence "without any titel" with mostly the same graphic template from H. J. Lührs (but yes he is is really credited for that).

Should i submit a new magazine, so that you get more details? For this should i upload first the cover?

Are scans of some topics like "copyright-section", Preview-page", "Technikon" or "Worlds Science News" helpful for you?

last not least the page 'Technikon' is like Perry Rhodan-Lexikon / Perry Rhodan Glossar (more terms belonging to real science than to Ren Dhark universe)

--Norman 18:19, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Norman, you are doing just fine - everyone needs to start somewhere. Neither 'Verlagsleiter', nor 'Lektorat', nor "Verleger" is an editor in my opinion - or we will be adding 25 people in Asimov's as Editors for example. So I would say that it is still a single editor here. Christian is better versed in the German publications so if he disagrees, we can always change it. :)

So "Technikon" appears in (almost) every issue? In this case, it will need to be disambiguated (the name of the issue added to the title). Maybe we should even start a series of them? Do you want to try to do that update? Or do you want me to make it so you see what I mean?

The preview can be skipped but if you believe it to be an integral part, we can keep it. Up to you. We can remove it and note it in the notes only. The list of always excluded items is here. This one falls under included with exception - see the section about "Forthcoming announcements": " Notes about what will be in future issues can be included if they are significant; for example, a single filler line at the bottom of a page doesn't get indexed, but an article, e.g. "In Times to Come", describing future issues, should be indexed..." If it is a complete page, I would call it one of the latter - but you have your eyes on the magazine so you make the decision :) Annie 18:32, 6 November 2019 (EST)

We already have a cover but if you have a better one, feel free to add it. Adding additional pages, unless really needed in order to demonstrate an issue, won't help really - we are not suited for multiple images per publication :) And feel free to add another issue - so we can keep working on the problematic areas. :) Annie 18:32, 6 November 2019 (EST)

The ideas just sound fine. With Gerhard Melchert it seems though that he is the one person held responsible for the magazine. Kurt Bernhardt was also named 'Cheflektor' but he was the person who initiated 'Perry Rhodan', introjected ideas, and had the final say for every issue of that series (similar to Rolf Schmitz for 'Die Terranauten'), so he should be credited here. The existence of a preview can be put into the publication's notes, I'd say. Christian Stonecreek 00:24, 7 November 2019 (EST)

So add him based on the Lektorat credit? I am fine with that if that is how German magazines credited their editors at the time. Maybe we should also add the exact credits up in the notes of the series so it is clear why someone is credited or not. As for the preview - it will come down to how extensive it is -- and this I cannot determine from here. So either way is fine with me. :) Annie 00:32, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Yeah, it seems to have been common usage in Germany: the meaning of 'editor' would have been encompassed by 'Redaktion'/'Redakteur', but this seems to have been used only beginning in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Before that there was either 'Lektor' or 'Herausgeber', but the latter was synonymous with the publisher, at least for the types of publications we talk about. Stonecreek 02:43, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Yeah. 'Redaktion'/'Redakteur' is what I had seen. OK - added back to the magazine and the note on the series was expanded. If someone wants to edit for clarity, please do not hesitate. :) Annie 03:02, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Norman, you will have to be cautious. I have obtained some issues of the magazine, and the credits do change over time: in some of them Gerhard Melchert is in fact only credited as a member of the publishing house ('Verlagsleitung'), and another person is credited as editor (here: 'Lektor'). Well, it was the same with Perry Rhodan.

The only credit I could find for Lührs is at the respective end of the novella ("Illustration"), and I would think that refers to the cover art (and the occasional interior art for the novella). Christian Stonecreek 08:48, 7 November 2019 (EST)

The role of Gerhard Melchert for me is more business orientated and stands for publishing and so on. The concept of the Ren Dhark storyline is fully comeing from Kurt Brand.

Yes, but since this is a magazine (and it is because of the additional material apart from the novellas; if all of the issues would only consist of novellas and maybe some artwork, we would file them as CHAPBOOKs), Melchert and the others are the ones who are credited as being responsible for the magazine as a whole (just as Bernhardt and Schelwokat were in the beginning for Perry Rhodan). We do record what is stated: please take a look at the help pages. It also seems that Kurt Brand is not credited in the respective issues, so he has likely to be added in a second, varianting step (again, as with Perry Rhodan). That is how ISFDB works (for good or for bad). Christian Stonecreek 13:35, 7 November 2019 (EST)

In our existing example #38 Lührs is credited two times on page 65. (first in the copyright section 'Graph. Gestaltung'; second on the bottom at the end of the story 'Illustration:'). But if you feel better, we can change the Pub text to "page 65 is a preview to the next story". The illustration at top of page 3 is also not mentioned and not credited. I prefer to concentrate us on the really important points. --Norman 09:20, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Details and pseudonyms

Details (legal names, birth and death year and so on) are always added to the canonical name record. In the case of Staff Caine, the cannonical is Jeff Mescalero - which already had the death year and the legal name but not the link for the connection or the birth year so I moved both there. Thanks for tracking it down! Annie 11:57, 7 November 2019 (EST)

And about Tensor McDyke - legal names have a specific format (Last, First Middles) so I fixed that and formatted the note. Annie 12:00, 7 November 2019 (EST)

One more thing: any web source can be inserted into the field 'Web Page' for a given author. Thanks, Stonecreek 13:52, 7 November 2019 (EST)

True when the link is about them. When it is piece of an information buried in an article that is not really about them otherwise, the notes is a better place IMO. :) Annie 13:55, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark, #37: Meuterei auf "Wega"

That was very good. A few small things:

• Do not add a series number. We use the series in a bit of a special way. I removed it and did the second step needed here.
• "Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen" and "Technikon" are there every issue. So they will need to be named with the issue in brackets so Technikon (Ren Dhark, #37: Meuterei auf "Wega") for example. Do you want me to change these or do you want to try?

The result is here. Annie 15:45, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Fine that my test was not so bad. I'm happy about this, but there are still serval issues indeed.

• you mean: i shouldn't add the serial number RD1DE37 in the first step. Please describe me the second step.

Nope - the number "37" on the series number :)

• Yes "Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen" and "Technikon" are in many magazines but not in every. which form of brackets i have to use "(" or "[" "{"? Should i use single-bracket or double-brackets (like in wikis) for that?

Always () for disambiguation. [ are used when you have multiple art pieces from the same artist with the same name in the same piece. { is not used in names. So Technikon (Ren Dhark, #37: Meuterei auf "Wega") for example.

• In #38 user:stonecreek put the article on p35 & p38 in series "World Science News" and "Die Raumfahrt-Story" plus a sequence 17. in #37 ist should be done in the same way. But how?

Click on the titles. Then edit the titles there (and add the series). Let me know if you want me to give you a direct link for one of them.

• "Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen", "Technikon" are although series and should be handled as above.

Yes - same answer. But they are also named the same in every issue they are in - so we need to separate them (or you will have a series with 20 essays with the same name) :)

• In the next magazines there exit other series with different name replaceing some of the actual one. So will understand how it works in isfdb, to do it later without support from. Many, many thank to you and stonecreek helping me. If it is ok for you, i will try to make the modifications by myself. I would be happy for your responses.

--Norman 16:23, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Other answers inline. Go ahead. I am here to moderate and help if needed. And you are welcome - magazines, especially non-English ones, are some of the hardest things around here. Annie 16:31, 8 November 2019 (EST)

PS: The second step on the series is a merge. I will leave it alone on the next issue you add and will let you do it. Will post a step by step in a few minutes. Annie 16:32, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Yeah it works! I think i've got it. Your explanations was very helpful. --Norman 17:15, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Great! :) Let me know if I can assist further. Annie 17:45, 8 November 2019 (EST)

(unindent) One more thing. After you fixed the name of Frank Edwards, the two essays showed up under here. Do you think that this is the same guy? Or is it just the same named one? If it is a different person, I can teach you how to disambiguate authors :) Annie 18:40, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Yes, it is this Frank Edwards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Edwards_(writer_and_broadcaster) . The articles in the magasins are extracts from the book "Flying Saucers - serious business" Copyright: Bulls Pressedienst, Frankfurt am Main (credited in this form on page 69). --Norman 16:00, 9 November 2019 (EST)

I've took a closer look on this subseries. It will be at least 29 essays from this book (from #37 until #65). Perhaps it's better to rename the series "Weltraum ABC" to "Fliegende Untertassen". --Norman 16:37, 9 November 2019 (EST)

As stated above, Kurt Brand is not credited as editor in the issues I have at hand (#38 among them), so it'd be correct to remove him from the entries.

On the background: 'Die große SF-Story von Kurt Brand' is not a credit for an editor, it just phrases that the idea for the series is from Brand. Likewise, K. H. Scheer and Clark Darlton were noted in a similar way on the cover of Perry Rhodan until the end of 1980, a year when neither of them was in any way still involved in the editorial work. Also, for Die Terranauten Rolf W. Liersch and Thomas R. P. Mielke were noted (but not credited) as being responsible for this series, but it turned out that they just developed the basic idea, which was adapted and changed by the editors. Christian Stonecreek 07:55, 9 November 2019 (EST)

Very interesting. So what i have to do? Wait for a result of your researched? --Norman 16:00, 9 November 2019 (EST)

Okay, I'll do the correcting on this point: We do index the credits as stated in a given publication. Any other credit has to be done by using serious sources and varianting to a new title.

From the help pages on entering the author / editor: "The name of the author of the publication. The name should be entered exactly as it is actually given". (So, since Brand is not stated in the publications as editor of the magazine, he can't be stated in the publication entry. (But he can on the title level of a magazine: I have done so for the 1967 title with Melchert credited in the copyright sections.)

And no, you usually don't have to wait for moderators to search for information: you can supply sources on your own. But we had a time when some data was based on hearsay: some of them turned out to be correct after all, but some of them didn't. So we have chosen to use valuable sources only. Christian Stonecreek 00:33, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark, #2: Der Kampf mit den Amphis

I will leave you do the last step here. Here are the step by step: The merging step:

• Go to the Gerhard Melchert's page (here)
• Click on "Show All Titles". It opens this
• Select what you want to merge, do the selections (the date should be ending in 00-00 in this case) and press Merge :) Once approved, the yearly edition for the magazine will have this title inside and it will be properly showing where it belongs.

If the editor page is too big you need to use Advanced Search to get to a page that allows merging. Let me know if you have any questions.Annie 16:04, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks! I've done it hopefully in correct way. Do you see my remarks here for Frank Edwards? --Norman 16:19, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Yep. It was perfect. That is what you need to do for magazines as a second step. Two exceptions:

• First entry for an year being added - then instead of a merge, you do an EDIT on the EDITOR title and adjust the series, title and date
• First entry with new editors even if we have an yearly record already - same as above.

The whole idea of this mergung is not to clutter the editor's pages with each issue on its own - thus the yearly records - see Gerhard Melchert. While he does not have that many titles, imagine Dozois's without that grouping and we have some authors that have a lot more editors credits than that (Neil Clarke for example) :) Let me know if you have any questions/concerns.

I adjusted the date as well - when the first record for that year was created, the EDITOR date was not adjusted.

And yes, I saw it - thanks for the answer. If it is the same guy, we are all good. :) Annie 16:26, 10 November 2019 (EST)

One small thing. When you are adding the next issue, do not add a series name or number. In this case it created a series called "Ren Dhark (1. Aufl.) - 1966" which then had to be deleted manually (I just did that). If you insist on adding a series name, use the actual series name (Ren Dhark (1. Aufl.)) and not the EDITOR yearly record name although the merge will assign it so no need to do that at all. :) Annie 16:31, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Again many thanks Annie. I just try this with #3.--Norman 16:36, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Approved. With nothing to fix. Now the post-approval steps :) You may want to go back to #1 though - this needs disambiguation. Annie 16:56, 10 November 2019 (EST)

By the way, if you want, you can add RD1DE03 and so on on the first submission. Either way works. You need to edit to add the cover anyway so it does not really matter but if you are not adding a cover for some reason, keep that in mind. Annie 16:58, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Perfect. Best support! But now I've to finish for today. --Norman 17:08, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Have a good night! Annie 17:15, 10 November 2019 (EST)

When merging, careful with the dates. The system will default on the one with a month and date (so 08-15 in this case), we want the other one. So always check and change the selection of the radio buttons when needed. I fixed it on this one. Annie 17:18, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Secondary verifications

When you find the OCLC number and if you check what it says and note any discrepancy on the notes, you may also want to secondary (OCLC) verify the publication. Go here for example and find Verify on the left menu. It will open this. Locate the OCLC line and select the middle button (the Verified column). While the PV trumps that, this will at least tell the next editor who finds these that they do not need to do that and that the OCLC had been checked (and if you get used to doing it, you won't forget to do it for the pubs you do not own so you cannot PV). It is not mandatory but decided I should mention that it is there :) Annie 13:42, 12 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks for information. I thought it's good to have as many external-ids as possible. Now i understand the priciple better. --Norman 15:44, 12 November 2019 (EST)

The secondary verifications are the older system - some of them are also external IDs now that we have both systems(the OCLC and the Reginalds for example), some are not (as they have no IDs). And we have a lot more external IDs than secondary verifications - some of them for specific languages (NILF is Italian only; SFBG is Bulgarian only and so on) :) So yes - adding the IDs is a good thing; I am just pointing out that as you did all the work in finding the number and adding it, you may as well get the one additional click done as well so it is clear that it was completed and checked. Annie 15:48, 12 November 2019 (EST)

Series and magazines

I will approve this but you do not need to do that - remember that you still need to merge the EDITOR records - so the series will come from the already existing record. Annie 15:50, 12 November 2019 (EST)

You're so uncomplaining. I'll improve myself. Thx --Norman 16:16, 12 November 2019 (EST)

Editor credits for Ren Dhark (1. Aufl.)

Sorry to drop in again, but since I have obtained today some more copies of the magazine, there seems to be the need to revise some (if not all) of the recently added issues of the first year of publication 1966. In the issues I own, Melchert is credited mainly as director for the publisher, and instead a whole bunch of persons is credited for the editing of the fiction ('Roman-Lektorat'). Yes, Melchert is also among them, but the credit (which we do record) is for the whole group. Thus, there are three possible solutions: 1) credit all of them with names, 2) credit 'various' (which is a recognized abbreviation for a group with an unknown subset of actual editors or a group of authors that are otherwise unknown in ISFDB), 3) credit 'various' and all other later editors of the magazine (since at least some more - Linda Grosse is one of them, I think - is credited in later issues instead of Melchert, or 4) credit 'Editors of Ren Dhark (1. Aufl.)' (similar to this magazine). Christian Stonecreek 10:41, 13 November 2019 (EST)

Would it be helpful to collect a list with all the roles from Magazine #1 to #98 an mentioned only the #nbr when sometings has changed versus the last magazines. Or do you want a scan of special #nbr? i can deliver it if needed --Norman 10:52, 13 November 2019 (EST)

Well, a list of the names who are listed as 'Lektor' would be good. I already have the one with the nine persons credited collectively in the beginning (provided they stayed the same until a sole editor was credited). But first decide which should be the actual credit from the four possibilities, please. We then will possibly have more than one title per year, just like with Perry Rhodan, when a change of editors took place in mid-year (as in 1962).

List of 'Lektor' "Ren Dhark (1.Aufl.)":

• year 1966
  • #1 to #8: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; team including this persons: Grit Peters; Linda Grosse; Hannelore Seuter-Barthel; Irmgard Smith; Petra Rumianzzew; Gerhard Lesch; Gerhardt Melchert; Rainer Delfs; O. F. Maurer
  • #9 to #15: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; team including this persons: Grit Peters; Linda Grosse; Irmgard Smith; Petra Rumianzzew; Gerhard Lesch; Gerhardt Melchert; Rainer Delfs; O. F. Maurer
  • #16 to #22: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; Linda Grosse; with role 'Hauptlektorat' and team: Grit Peters; Irmgard Smith; Petra Rumianzzew; Thomas Flemming; Gerhardt Melchert; Rainer Delfs; O. F. Maurer
• year 1967
  • #23 to #24: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; and with role 'Vwtl. Lektorat'; without naming a team
  • #25 to #65: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; and with role 'Lektorat'; without naming a team
• year 1968
  • #66 to #77: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; and with role 'Lektorat'; without naming a team
  • #78: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; Rainer Delfs; with role 'Lektorat'
  • #79: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; Linda Gosse; with role 'Lektorat'
  • #80: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; and with role 'Lektorat'
  • #81 to #85: Gerhard Melchert as 'Verlagsleiter'; Rainer Delfs; with role 'Lektorat'
  • #86 to #92: all roles are uncredited
• year 1969
  • #93 to #98: all roles uncredited

so from #1 to #15 we should change to credited by 'various'; from #16 to #22 to Linda Grosse (all within 1966); from #23 to #77 to Gerhard Melchert (all within 1967); from #78 to #85 credited by 'varoious'; from #86 to #98 to 'uncredited'. This would be correct. --Norman 12:29, 13 November 2019 (EST)

Seems fine, except that we would credit #s 78, 79 & 81-85 to Grosse or Delfs, respectively. A director of the publisher ('Verlagsleiter') isn't recognized by us as an editor. Thanks for the list, Christian Stonecreek 23:51, 13 November 2019 (EST)

Thinking about it, it seems that the group credit in the beginning of the magazine really was a standard credit for all publications from Kelter: there was also a credit for a puzzle editor ('Rätselredaktion', or similar), but there were no puzzles inside the magazine (at least not at that time). So, 'various' seems even more fitting. Christian Stonecreek 04:19, 14 November 2019 (EST)

Due to the fact i'm new here i will accept every decision of the older ones here. Because for me all of these lectors are definitely NOT the masterminds of this series. I know it's a magazin series but for me it's a little bit time wasting. In Germany we say 'it's like splitting a hair'. But i will be in scope with your guidelines because you have surely a long history. So once again i will do what you advice me for this subject. My intension is to register this series here properly and accurately. --Norman 06:58, 14 November 2019 (EST)

I think we should take 'various' for the #1 to #15. Therefore i will add #15 now. Perhaps there is a possabilty to change all 15 magazine in one step from 'Gerhard Melchert' to 'various'. --Norman 07:24, 14 November 2019 (EST)

The editor slot is not for the mastermind of the whole magazine unless they are the editor as well - it is for the editor of the issue. Which in some cases is the same person, in some - not really. The masterminds go into the notes on the series level. Part of that comes from the fact that most of the data-structure is designed for US publications. We do push it now and again and change a bit but the base is still sometimes not perfect for international publications. One of the pending (and we hope happening one day) enhancements is to allow us to record not just editors for magazines and anthologies and authors for everything else but also other roles - Editors for novels, translators, masterminds for magazines - you get the idea - and have those show up on author pages. In the meantime - extensive notes is what we all have to do. :) Annie 10:50, 14 November 2019 (EST)

Plus: Usually, the persons credited are or were involved in editing the magazine in a major way: As with Kurt Bernhardt & Günter M. Schelwokat Melchert and the others were likely the ones who decided what was to be printed of the drafted novellas (or if they had to be changed), were involved in the plot developments (because they were the person responsible that the novellas would sell), and decided which other contents (including the art) was to be published. Chrstian Stonecreek 11:01, 14 November 2019 (EST)

Yes i understand these arguments, but who has brougth how many percent of the total? I suppose it's always difficult to define that. So i share your reflections and i will agree to your decisions anyway. What i not understand is when comparing the authors by your example Perry Rhodan - the responsible for the exposes are also mentioned (Scheer, Voltz, Ziegler ,...) and by Ren Dhark Kurt Brand is not mentioned. Thats the only thing about that i have some doubts. But you're right he is not officially mentioned except on the cover. That my personal feeling. Now i will stop the discussion about that and i will looking forward. I would be very glad if you can help me and give me some advices to update and create the changed and new series titels. That would be great. --Norman 12:16, 14 November 2019 (EST)

The individual percentages are impossible to decide for us (and likely for anybody). For example, there are different claims by Clark Darlton, K. H. Scheer and William Voltz as to when, what and whom was involved in the planning of the plot developments for Perry Rhodan. We decided to use independent sources for this reason. Christian Stonecreek 02:41, 15 November 2019 (EST)

One more thing to note that is quite important and may be unrecognized for new editors: we normalize titles (citation: Titles should have case regularized according to language-specific rules unless there is some specific evidence that the author intended certain letters to be in a specific case. For example, if the title is "EXTRO" in all caps, the title should be entered as "Extro".). This will mean for Ren Dhark the same it means for Perry Rhodan. An example: An essay in a given publication titled "PERRY RHODAN beginnt wieder mit Nr. 1" will be regularized to "Perry Rhodan beginnt wieder mit Nr. 1". Likewise, if a title would be stated as "perry rhodans abenteuer in naupaum" it has to be regularized to "Perry Rhodans Abenteuer in Naupaum" for ISFDB. That is because both the character and the series are written in the publications as 'Perry Rhodan'. Contrasting to that, "Die Abenteuer der SOL" will be left unchanged since space ships are written in case throughout the series. Christian Stonecreek 03:06, 15 November 2019 (EST)

Zielpunkt TERRA

For this novella, the same rule to credit what is stated applies. A similar situation occurred with PR# 6 (I think) and an early issue of Atlan. I corrected the title accordingly and made the necessary variants. Christian Stonecreek 03:25, 16 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks for doing that. That's really what i mean with 'help me ..' doing the registration of Ren Dhark in the right way! --Norman 03:30, 16 November 2019 (EST)

World Science News

Hello, Norman. Can you look at this series. 3 have numbers and 2 do not. Is that intentional or an oversight? Thanks! Annie 02:54, 17 November 2019 (EST)

Same for Die Raumfahrt-Story? Annie 02:56, 17 November 2019 (EST)

Yes indeed, i've seen this. The first issues (#21, 22, ...) has no serial number printed. Later issues have a internal serial number printed. But indeed the list doesn't look fine an isn't in a good sequence. Do you have a idea? Perhaps a remark in brackets? --Norman 03:04, 17 November 2019 (EST)

Unlike publications contents, you cannot order series with |. And you can only use numbers. So... the cleanest way will be to add the numbers to all of them or to remove them from all (then the dates will order them properly). If you decide to add to all, add a note to the series explaining how these numbers are added. Annie 03:16, 17 November 2019 (EST)

Perfect :) Annie 04:25, 17 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark, #23: Vorsicht, Pressorstrahlen

After the merge, this text: "The titel of the magazine (see cover) is a litte bit different (no exclamation mark) to the titel of the novella (with exclamation mark). On page 65 is an remark to the readers that the autor of the novella #19 was in fact Kurt Brand." is deleted from the entry for "Ren Dhark, #23: Vorsicht, Pressorstrahlen" (As the title record is now the yearly record). Just leaving this here in case you wanted to copy it inside of the publication. Annie 12:59, 17 November 2019 (EST)

missing

Just out of curiosity, is "--missing--" really printed on the titles? Annie 16:13, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Not at all. The pages 35-38 are normaly inserted in the middle of the magazine. It is in better paper qualitiy. But in some of my publication this four pages has been removed. But formerly they was there inserted. So 'missing' is more or less a place holder, which can be inserted later from others. --Norman 16:21, 18 November 2019 (EST)

OK... that's not how that should work... What you can do is to add a note on the publication level that "PV1's copy misses these pages but a regular copy of the magazine should contain them so they are added into the contents below" or language to that effect. But the name of the title itself cannot be showing that it is missing in someone's copy - this is mixing the concepts of "publications" (as a physical object) and "titles" (aka the text/art itself and its associated title, author, language, type and date". Does this make sense? Annie 16:34, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Yes i understand. In fact we have two different cases. 1.) 'World Science News': when the article is missing, then i didn't know the titel. So this mean i've do delete these records? Or can the record exists with an empty titel or with a special keyword like <unknown> in the titel or so? 2.) Die Raumfahrt-Story: Due to the numbering of this articles the missing titels are well-known. In this case do i've only to modify the titel? --Norman 16:54, 18 November 2019 (EST)

They exist, right? - even if we do not know the titles, they do exist in the magazine usually. So we should keep them. If you do not know the title, use the name of the magazine as a title or the Series with the number of the magazine. You know they are there but you do not know how they are named. So name them "World Science News (Ren Dhark #32)" for example and add notes in both the pub record and on the title level about the naming convention and what it represents. If another PV shows up and knows the titles, they can rename them.

So in both cases, we are only looking at renaming the titles plus adding notes in the magazine itself that the PV1 copy was missing them. And in both cases, when you submit the editTitle, I would also recommend to add a note there in the vein of "Name based on previous issues" or something along these lines. :) Annie 17:02, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Approved the first and split the note - the name sentence in the title, the fact that it is missing into the publication. Let me know what you think and I will change the rest while approving in the same way (or any other way we agree to). Thanks! Annie 17:21, 18 November 2019 (EST)

All done I think :) Feel free to change the wording. One more thing I noticed - you do not need to use "br" to make a new line. Some older publications still have the tags because we used to need to add "br" but now they do not do anything. So you can safely skip them :) Annie 17:30, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Your advice is ok. In middle of the pub-note there already exist the remark (missing in my publication). So i'll delete this remark and perhaps put the last sentence directly on this place instead. Thanks again Annie. --Norman 17:36, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Ah, I scanned quickly and apparently missed it. Apologies. Annie 17:38, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Upcoming serial titles for Ren Dhark

Norman, I have seen in the copies I have obtained that some later issues publish amateur stories, and some of them are published in more than one instalment. For magazines we do record those instalments as SERIALs, with '(part m of n)' added, like with the Dombrow piece in here.

And for the -missing- pieces mentioned above. For which issues is this a problem? Maybe I have them in my collection, maybe even complete. Christian Stonecreek 02:49, 20 November 2019 (EST)

The publishing of amateur stories started with #43 (remark on p.3). They has replaced the "Die Raumfahrt-Story". Later they was integrated somewhere in the magazines sometimes with 2 pages. I've a focus on it and will do the serial-numbering as you told. Until now the involved issues where something is "missing" are: #23, #26, #31, #34, (#43, #53, ... until now not registered here). --Norman 05:25, 20 November 2019 (EST)

@Stonecreek: I've just added #44 with a short-story part 1 of 2. Please take look on it if all is done right. Question: Is a short-story with only one part also type SERIAL? (part 1 of 1)? --Norman 08:49, 20 November 2019 (EST)

Yes, very good! And: No, a one-part story is not a serial (though a one-part publication in a magazine of a full-grown novel - of at least 40,000 words - would be, according to our rules). Christian Stonecreek 09:18, 20 November 2019 (EST)

Ah sorry, only #53 is in the lot I obtained, but I'll see if the second-hand shop over here has the others during the upcoming week. Christian Stonecreek 00:15, 22 November 2019 (EST)

eine amateur-kurzgeschichte

Usually titles start with capital letters and unless there is a significant reason for us to believe that the author chose to use small letters for their work for a reason, we would normalize the titles to follow the language standards and note in the notes that a publisher chose something different. Which in this case will call for all 3 words to be capitalized (as you would see it as a start of a normal sentence in German). Can you share any reasons not to? Thanks! Annie 13:44, 21 November 2019 (EST)

I know this well. But the title is written in this way, also for any following stories. But it's ok for me with Upcase lettes. --Norman 14:03, 21 November 2019 (EST)

If you consider this intentional, we can leave them with small letters. But a note needs to be added to both the record and the magazine to ensure that the next German editor who finds it does not "fix" it thinking it was left that way by mistake. Let me know what you want to do :) Annie 14:28, 21 November 2019 (EST)

two point to this pending TitelUpdate:

#1 (decision): The series titel (for this story in #43 and all other short-stories) should be: "Eine Amateur-Kurzgeschichte" (as in the content-list on page 3 written; but in a different way as in the heading of the story itself)

#2 (remark): due to the fact, that especially the fist published story on 38 is missing in my magazine "eine amateur-kurzgeschichte (part 1 of 1) (Ren Dhark #43)" is a place-holder. And this is a (one page) story and not a serial (part 1 of x). But see in #44, #45 this will be a serial story with two parts, and the same series titel, which has to be created first.

--Norman 15:06, 21 November 2019 (EST)

Approved and massaged. See if this looks fine (and feel free to edit if more changes are needed. Thanks for working with me on this! Annie 15:16, 21 November 2019 (EST)

Not at all, i've to be thankful. --Norman 15:28, 21 November 2019 (EST)

(unindent) More housekeeping: 3 of the Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen essays (36, 37 and 38) were missing a comma (Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen (Ren Dhark #36) instead of Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen (Ren Dhark, #36)), breaking the flow of the series page so I added the commas where they belonged. As we have the name of the issue there only so we differentiate, that's just heads up (on a real title part I would have come to ask you to check the magazine first) :) Annie 17:05, 21 November 2019 (EST)

you are totally right. I've had that houskeeping (comma for 36-38) also on my to-do list. but as you know this was the three first magazines registrated here. fine & thanks. --Norman 17:13, 21 November 2019 (EST)

Actually seems like we may need to do more cleanup - Die Raumfahrt-Story does not have commas at all in the same issues; ABC is mix and match. I pinged Christian here and will leave you two to decide in what direction we are shifting the names of all the various essays (comma or no comma) and then we can update all the ones that are different. So let's wait for him to come back online tonight (he is in Europe) and then you and him decide the direction? What do you think? Annie 17:15, 21 November 2019 (EST)

It is not urgent for me, we can wait. But yes, it has to be done in any case. --Norman 17:21, 21 November 2019 (EST)

Hi, Norman. I'm all with you and will add the commas to the titles for #38. Christian Stonecreek 00:20, 22 November 2019 (EST)

So we are making all the essays that need it use the (Ren Dhark, #XX) form, right? I will give you a hand this weekend in changing the ones that do not use that exact form. Annie 12:23, 22 November 2019 (EST)

In the meantime i've changed many to the form (Ren Dhark, #XX). Some few still have to be modified - step by step in next days. --Norman 15:43, 22 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark, #57: Mensch oder Roboter?

The note in the title record here will need to be moved/copied elsewhere - this will be merged into the yearly record so if you leave it as the note, it won't be clear which issue it is; if you do not, we will lose it. I'd add it to the publication AND to the series (modified to contain issue number) if I were you but... your choice :) Just heads up. Annie 12:26, 22 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks for the tip. I'll copy it before merging and put it in the note. --Norman 13:06, 22 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark: missing middle parts

Hi! As written above, the only issue I have of the ones with missing middles is #53. But it's somewhat likely that the second-hand shop over here has most of the others; though I'll come to see to them only somewhen during the next week. I'd like to fill in the actual title for the 'World Science News' series. Would that be okay? Christian Stonecreek 12:35, 22 November 2019 (EST)

This would be great! Good luck finding them. --Norman 13:02, 22 November 2019 (EST)

Done! I also will add some more items, i.e. letters & essays by people already in ISFDB (analogous to 'Perry Rhodan Leserkontaktseite'), but will begin only after hauling the fishing net in next week. Christian Stonecreek 12:16, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Feel free to add these letters and so on. But please hold me informed, so i can learn more about such topics. --Norman 06:19, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Okay, I found a few copies of the issues with missing middle parts. I'll begin to add them and contents for the other ones I have in stock. For #98 I just changed the notes somewhat ('four weeks after #97' to 'two weeks after #97', the copyright section was found on p. 62, and there was no preview for a next issue). Thanks, Christian Stonecreek 00:17, 28 November 2019 (EST)

that's fine. So this series will be nearly 100% complete. And thanks for changeing details of #98. I must have been a little bit tired when entering this. --Norman 06:35, 28 November 2019 (EST)

Serials and parent titles

Serials needs to be varianted to the complete stories or novels they serialize. So I fixed this one. Let me know if you have any questions. :) Annie 15:02, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks for fixing this. But i didn't have done the modification of this 3 reords before. I've only registrated the records like this others [1]. So i'll try to do the others in the same way. --Norman 15:18, 23 November 2019 (EST)

I did not say you did anything wrong or that you did something to these :) I am just letting you know there is one more post-approval step to be done when we deal with serials and fixing one so you can see what I mean :) Annie 15:23, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Thats exactly the best way to show me this then i can do it afterwards in the right way. So i learn a lot. I was just wondering me about before that something additional has changed. --Norman 15:40, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Someone had varianted them into the canonical author name as serials instead of merging them into a single story entry on the parent level. If that is what you mean - not sure who did it and why they did not finish the job. The varianting to the canonical is done when the publication uses a pseudonym or different spelling of the author name - but you had seen that before so I did not elaborate on that part. :) Other from that - not that I know of. Serials without parents pop up on a report generally and someone will fix them at some point - that’s how I saw that one and came over to let you know. Hope that makes sense :) Annie 15:47, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Everything ok. I think, i understand now how varianting is working. And on top: how to handle it with canonicals. It's not simple, but logical. --Norman 06:15, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Serials (or any other variant) don't get series information. Series information is only recorded on parents. The software will automatically show the series on any of the parent's variants. Hopefully that explanation made sense, but it's why I had to reject two of your edits. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Now i'm a little bit wondering about. The last days it worked like i done today. Nothing was rejected. --Norman 16:32, 24 November 2019 (EST)

That's because the variants were not being made. Technically you can add it on the variants but IF the spelling are different, they will need to be cleaned manually. If they are the same, the varianting removes them from the variants. Hope that helps. Annie 16:55, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Sternendschungel Galaxis

Hi, it would seem that 'Ren Dhark - Classic-Zyklus' is more of a title series than a publication series. What do you think about it? Christian Stonecreek 10:55, 9 December 2019 (EST)

I've had the same mind. Then i made a short overview what pub-series from HJB will come with Ren Dhark content:

1. Classic-Zyklus #1-16 (HC) - "Classic-Zyklus" is not printed on the hardcovers but they have serial numbers on the back;
2. Sonderbände #1-29 (small HC) - "Sonderband" is not printed on the hardcovers but they have serial numbers on the back
3. Drakhon-Zyklus #1-24 (HC) - "Drakhon-Zyklus" and serial numbers are printed on the hardcovers!
4. Unitall #1-38 (small HC) - "Unitall" and serial numbers are printed on the hardcovers! (not books from Unitall-Verlag CH!!!!)
5. Bitwar-Zyklus #1-12 (HC) - "Bitwar-Zyklus" and serial numbers are printed on the hardcovers!
6. Weg ins Weltall #1-88 - still active (HC) - "Weg ins Weltall" and serial numbers are printed on the hardcovers!
7. Spezial #1-5 (HC) - "Spezial" and serial numbers are printed on the hardcovers!
8. Forschungsraumer CHARR #1-12 (pb) "Forschungsraumer CHARR" and serial numbers are printed on the paperbacks!
9. Sternendschungel Galaxis #1-54 (pb) "Sternendschungel Galaxis" and serial numbers are printed on the paperbacks!

additional series exists like: "Projekt 99", "Xtra", Taschenbücher and "Der Mysterious".

So indeed the pub series are in a 1:1 relationsship with logical series names (Zyklen), and the first series (fix-up mixed with new stories) is more or less unnamed. Perhaps we can give this pub series the name "Classic". This name is well known in this fan-scene. But anyway, i think it's better to use for this more than 300 novels (without magazines) different pub-series. --Norman 14:46, 9 December 2019 (EST)

Let also talk about the serial name. At this moment we have only "Ren Dhark". Whats about to have more or less a simillar grouping, or should we put the groupname and serial as a prefix in every titel name?. I'm very interested for your advice. --Norman 14:46, 9 December 2019 (EST)

Okay, I'll approve of the submission. Thanks for the informational update.

Thanks. --Norman 05:01, 10 December 2019 (EST)

With this series, it seems it has to belong in the same series as the original novellas. After all, it is just a 'condensed rephrasing' of the original storyline. Christian Stonecreek 04:34, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Yes it is - as you say - a condensed rephrasing. The amount of modifications are much more as by the "PR-Silberbände" or by "Atlan-Blaubände 1-13", due to the fact of low consistency in the orignial series. Hardcover #6-#8 includes new novels, which are located in a 3 years long time gap between #49 and #50 in the original series. Hardcover #9-#16 are a fix-up of the orginal novels #50-#98. --Norman 05:01, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Yeah, but it's still the same plot that's been told. I therefore rejected the new series and added instead a note to the initial one. Christian Stonecreek 05:27, 10 December 2019 (EST)

The result now is confusing and irreproducible. Looking on the series "Ren Dhark" we have a novella "#1: Sternendschungel Galaxis" and a novel "Sternendschungel Galaxis" (without serial). And later there will come a total different pub-series with 54 issuses namend "Sternendschungel Galaxis". But lets look first on the actual situation. The pub-series are ok. My proposal or idea fro the series is the following:

1: Ren Dhark universe

1.1: Ren Dhark (original)

1.1.1: RD Hefte - among them all 98 novellas (3 different editions from Kelter)

1.1.1.1: Weltraum ABC - all sub-titels ... until

1.1.1.x: Worlds Science News

1.1.2: RD Taschenbücher - among them all 6 paperbacks (2 different editions from Kelter & DLV) and reprints from HJB-Verlag ("RD Spezial" #1-#3)

1.2: Ren Dhark (projects)

1.2.1: RD Projekt 99 - 35 novellas Mohlberg-Verlag

1.2.1: RD Xtra - 8 novellas

1.3: Ren Dhark (new)

1.3.1: RD Zyklus1: Classic (fix-up) - among them 16 hc and several "Ren-Dhark Sonderbände"

1.3.2: RD Zyklus2: Drakhon - among them 24 hc and several "Ren-Dhark Sonderbände"

1.3.3: RD Zyklus3: Sternendschungel Galaxis - among 54 pb and several "Ren-Dhark Sonderbände", "Ren Dhark Unitall" and "Forschungsraumer CHARR"

1.3.4: RD Zyklus4: Bitwar - among them 24 hc

1.3.5: RD Zyklus5: Weg ins Weltall - among them 88 hc and "Ren Dhark Unitall" and "Forschungsraumer CHARR"

1.4: Ren Dhark (dictionary) - 1 hc

1.5: Ren Dhark (magazines) - 2 magazines (not the 98 novellas!)

In my opinion this would be a clear series structure. The actual structures of PR or even Atlan are not sorted; ex. "Planetenromane" or Papebacks or Hardcover are not visisble on the first look. --Norman 06:37, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Yes, the concept of a title series may be irritating at first glance. For a fiction series it comprises the idea to list all titles belonging to the fictional series under one heading. It seems that Ren Dhark has only one linear story, so it's somewhat logical to use only one series (analogous to Die Terranauten). Titles like Weltraum ABC or World Science News have reports on reality, and are as such totally different from a fiction series. That a title is used for a shortfiction and a novel has also occurred with Perry Rhodan, but as they are different title types (with different authors), there's no problem involved.

With Perry Rhodan there was the case of the sister series Atlan and other main characters that deviate from the main current of the cycles (and novellas 1-3042); they can't all be put in a chronological order without going nuts (often it is impossible to find any reference for the time slot).

I'm still not happy with this actual situation. Perhaps there will be an other possibility later. --Norman 09:43, 10 December 2019 (EST)

There does remain the possibility to fix the titles into the series by numbering them, like here: look at the numbering of the first titles in the series.

It also would seem that Ren Dhark (magazines) wouldn't be part of the title series (just like Perry Rhodan Magazin is not part of the Perry Rhodan universe. Christian Stonecreek 11:36, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Concerning the hardcover: Is there an actual credit for an author on the title page of Sternendschungel Galaxis? We do state the person(s) credited there. If there's no person credited we set the publication and the title to 'uncredited' and variant to the authors in a second step (like with the 'Perry Rhodan' fix-ups). Christian Stonecreek 09:29, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Ok. No problem for me to do it in this way, But i've oriented me on this example [2]. So this example is a bad practice? --Norman 09:43, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Well, you didn't! The publications and the initial title of the example are as by 'uncredited' and then were varianted to the actual combination of authors. Christian Stonecreek 11:36, 10 December 2019 (EST)

I have done this for Das Rätsel des Ringraumers. Christian Stonecreek 11:40, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Sorry, i've missunderstood. Next time i'll hopefully do it in the right way. Should i've change it also for #1? (Because it should be like #2, but Dirk de Broer changed the authors for #1). --Norman 11:53, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Well, let me do this one for you! It's easier to unmerge the title and than variant it. Christian Stonecreek 12:00, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Thanks. Other point: You've this merged records in series monolith? --Norman 12:09, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Do you mean the English titles? They are mixed-up because there apparently already existed a series named 'Monolith'. I'll adapt. Thanks for pointing this out. Things like this do happen: consider this, where some of the series could claim the title 'Jupiter'. Christian Stonecreek 13:41, 10 December 2019 (EST)

Zielpunkt Terra

I have your variant of Zielpunkt Terra on hold. It looks like you used "Add a Variant to This Title" when you should have used "Make This Title a Variant". I'm assuming you were trying to state that the novel by uncredited (i.e. no credit in the pub) was written by Kurt Brand, Hans-Joachim Freiberg, Staff Caine, Cal Canter, and Manfred Weinland. Is that correct? If so, you need to use "Make This Title a Variant". In addition, you need to use authors' canonical names in the new parent record. Therefore, Staff Caine needs to be Jeff Mescalero and Cal Canter needs to be Peter Theodor. If that was not what you were intending, please let me know what it was. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:36, 11 December 2019 (EST)

The subject is complex. The original novellas which are the base of this fix-up pub has been written by Kurt Brand, Hans-Joachim Freiberg, Hermann Werner Peters (legal name! no author record exits in isfdb up to now; pseudonyms are: Staff Caine & Jeff Mescalero), and Peter Theodor Krämer (legal name! no author record exits in isfdb up to now; pseudonyms are: Peter Theodor & Cal Canter) and Manfred Weinland which has written this new novel. This pub is a condensed and coherent and completley rewritten new edition. So i think we have to do first an reassessment of the two involving authors! Jeff Mescalero & Peter Theodor has never been stated by any "Ren Dhark" pub. They are other pseudonyms of the same legal person, which has been used from other publishers (Pabel and not Kelter). The pseudonyms Staff Caine & Cal Canter are binded to the formerly publisher Kelter-Verlag. In this fix-up edition (from a third publisher HJB-Verlag) they used the legal names instead, which are unfortunately not existing up to now in isfdb.org. I'm a little bit helpless to solve this conflict. In my opinion we have to create first new authors "Hermann Werner Peters" and "Peter Theodor Krämer" with the same legal names. Then we have to define "Staff Caine" & "Jeff Mescalero" plus "Cal Canter & "Peter Theodor" as pseudonyms to this "new" authors. After this has been done, all the authors for this variant has canonial name! Do you agree? If not, can you give me an advice to go further? Perhaps User:Stonecreek has an idea? --Norman 19:27, 11 December 2019 (EST)

If I'm understanding correctly, you should use "Make This Title a Variant" and enter Kurt Brand, Hans-Joachim Freiberg, Hermann Werner Peters, Peter Theodor Krämer, and Manfred Weinland as the parent authors. The parent has to have canonical names and not pseudonyms. Once that is accepted, that will create the Hermann Werner Peters and Peter Theodor Krämer author entries. From there, you can create pseudonyms for the house names. Does that make sense? -- JLaTondre (talk) 20:44, 11 December 2019 (EST)

Yes this will make sense. I'll try it in this way and reject the TitleUpdate myself. --Norman 05:41, 12 December 2019 (EST)

Canonical names

Hi, in isfdb we have canonical names -the most often used- and we have pseudonyms. There is no reason to make the 'real name' the canonical name when it has never appeared on or in a book.--Dirk P Broer 10:07, 12 December 2019 (EST)

Problem with the new çanonical names "Hermann Werner Peters" and "Peter Theodor Krämer" is that every title under the old canonical names has to be varianted against the new canonical names. And there is quite a lot of e.g. Jeff Mescalero and Peter Theodor. I'd rather have the 'real names' as pseudonyms of the existing canonicals.--Dirk P Broer 10:10, 12 December 2019 (EST)

I understand that would be a lot of work, but i'm still little bit confused due to different advices from JLaTondre and your side. Fact is, that the real names "Hermann Werner Peters" and "Peter Theodor Krämer" are definitly used in this titel (page 3)! And all of the 4 pseudonyms are not credited in this title. But, i can arrange me with the actual solution, which is in my opionion not perfect. Thanks :-) --Norman 10:30, 12 December 2019 (EST)

If the 'real names' are given in this book, then they ought to be varianted against their canonicals -and the names must be changed in the present book, as I entered the canonicals. Otherwise we have to to a lot of work. I do not think that JLaTondre was aware of the frequency of the present canonical names when he gave the advice.--Dirk P Broer 10:44, 12 December 2019 (EST)

So this presentation fits better the reality (but not easily to understand for a beginner like me). Thanks again. --Norman 10:57, 12 December 2019 (EST)

I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that Staff Caine was a house name used by Jeff Mescalero & Hermann Werner Peters (two different people). Rereading, that's not the case. Dirk's handling of it is correct & what I would have said if I had read what you wrote correctly. Sorry about that. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:04, 12 December 2019 (EST)

never mind. Thanks for the clarification. --Norman 17:09, 12 December 2019 (EST)

Diverse things

I have dropped the publication series Heyne Allgemeine Reihe from some of your recent additions: after 2004 the classic publication series were just not anymore existant with Heyne.

Ok --Norman 15:33, 12 December 2019 (EST)

Also, I have rejected the addition of a title series 'Rico': this is only a single novel by Arndt Ellmer.

This is a pity. In which way we can bind this to this excerpt to the novel? --Norman 15:33, 12 December 2019 (EST)

It would seem the best way would be to add notes to both of the titles in question. Christian Stonecreek 15:49, 12 December 2019 (EST)

And I have put your numbering of diverse cycles for Atlan on hold: with the numbers being in the 30s they seem out of touch with the others, and they also would contradict the numbering stated at Perrypedia. Christian Stonecreek 15:13, 12 December 2019 (EST)

This is first a small and manageable test (as written in help-file here), if it could be a solution for sorting within a complex series. Then the actual numbering of the "Atlan Miniseries" (Atlan Zyklus 6: Traversan, ...) is also contradict the stating in perrypedia, but the sequence is correct. The sequence of Atlan paperback-editions (Lepso, ..., Rico, ... Polychora) are actual completly unsorted. So what would you do to bring this in a chronological sequence? --Norman 15:33, 12 December 2019 (EST)

It seems this attempt could prove to be futile: after all, the beginning of the series was not chronological, Zyklus 2 (Atlan's early years within the Arkon empire) was placed way before the other cycles. Christian Stonecreek 15:49, 12 December 2019 (EST)

It's clear that it is immpossible to bring all pubs such an sequence. My intension is not so big. The best example are the "Atlan Miniseries" (Atlan Zyklus 6: Traversan, ... Atlan Zyklus 12: Flammenstaub) it works fine! My intension is to bring the Atlan-Trilogies subseries in a sequence as they was published just like this [3]. --Norman 16:03, 12 December 2019 (EST)

Well, but than the numbers seem way too high. I'll reject the submissions and install the numeration according to Perrypedia. Christian Stonecreek 01:53, 13 December 2019 (EST)

Well done. It's looks fine. --Norman 02:21, 13 December 2019 (EST)

Uncredited Publications

I put several of your submissions on hold that show the author as "uncredited". Why isn't Rainer Castor credited as the editor of these publications? Bob 11:18, 17 December 2019 (EST)

This is likely the case as with some of the other publications in the series. He seems not to be credited on the title page (similar also to this series from an associated publisher). Christian Stonecreek 11:36, 17 December 2019 (EST)

I've done this due to several reasons. 1.) For the formerly registrated novels in this pub series #17 to #26 it was also done like this. 2.) I was told from other moderators to do it this way. 3.) They are "fixed up" novel based on novellas which was published before. Rainer was surely more than an editor behalf. But the editiors Sabine and Klaus was also integrated in the procees to write this novel. 4.) Yes, Rainer is not credited on the titel page. --Norman 11:43, 17 December 2019 (EST)

O.K., I'll go ahead and approve them given that other moderators have approved similar cases. But it offends me anyhow that the person who put in all the work doesn't get the credit. Bob 12:57, 17 December 2019 (EST)

I can partially understand these thoughts. These Perry Rhodan / Atlan publications are special and several authors have always worked on a joint synopsis. Rainer carefully summarized these individual stories 30 years later, fixing minor logic errors and removing repetitions. But unfortunately he was not explicitly named as an author in any volume. The novells #14 - #16 in the pub series are different. They are new written novels. Therefore Rainer is credited for them as author. --Norman 15:04, 17 December 2019 (EST)

But there are many collections that are edited by someone different from the stories' author, and it is the author who gets credit for the collection, with the editor perhaps credited in the notes. I don't really understand why these made-up novels are different. Bob 16:04, 17 December 2019 (EST)

I share your opinion! What are the exact guidelines for this? Obviously there are different opinions. I thought the name had to be on the titel page (not cover). If not, then "uncredited". I am new here and really only want to record the missing books. That is why I orient myself on existing examples. I would appreciate naming the processor/editor. But that would mean that the criterion "has to be written on title page" has to be revised. The result is that you have to change a lot of verified objects again so that the series are designed uniformly. --Norman 16:37, 17 December 2019 (EST)

To do this, you moderators should coordinate internally beforehand. I'm waiting for your decision but prefer to go ahead and in the worst case change all pubs afterwards. --Norman 16:37, 17 December 2019 (EST)

I can imagine that it could perhaps be helpful to describe the "fix-up" novellas and their versions of "Perry Rhodan" / "Atlan" and "Ren Dhark" series in more detail.

• What do these three “fix-up” series of publications have in common?

• The spirit of the underlying novellas and their courses of action should be carefully preserved as far as possible.
• The transitions from one amendment to the other amendment have been adjusted in such a way that it can’t longer noticed by the readers.
• There is no table of contents like in an anthology or an omnibus. The underlying novellas and authors are only mentioned either in the foreword or in the afterword. It is a single revised new novel in the sense of the old-known novellas series.
• The author of this partially rewritten story is only mentioned on the copyright page (roles in German: “Bearbeitung” -> editing or working on this subject; “Beratung” -> Consulting; and “Herausgeber (Hrsg.)” -> editor)

• Typical changes to the originals:

• reps
• Logic errors and contradictions
• New German spelling-guideline
• Modernized outdated technology terms (ex. tape device -> memory device)
• Excessive scenes of violence
• Smoothing transitions from one novella to the next.
• cuts (bad written parts with no relvance)
• Change of the order sequence of chapters within the storylines

• What are the 3 series not:

• A "reset" or "restart" of the series (or alternate retelling like PR Neo)
• A normal anthology;
• A normal novel

• Then what are the 3 series mentioned instead?

• a comprehensive “renewal” or “refurbish” or conversion of individual novellas into a retreaded and modernized story that has retained its original character.
• Another (expanded) type of anthology; with an editor but with no author. However, it is necessary to name the original authors, but a direct assignment to the earlier stories is not recommended. (no proper 1:1 relation anymore)
• Not a full new novel, but a single partially rewritten story. I think that’s the reason why there is no author credited could be to avoid copyright conflicts.

If you are interested to go deeper in each of this 3 series let me know this, because there some additional but individual facts for each of this fix-up series. (ex. scale of modification intensity) --Norman 10:09, 18 December 2019 (EST)

Please see the discussion here for further thoughts on this problem. And thank you for bringing this type of publication and it's difficulties to the attention of the moderators; your participation is much appreciated. Bob 11:32, 18 December 2019 (EST)

Variations and Title Page

Hello Norman! I'm sorry but I have to reject all two of your submissions.

If the parent title Echo aus dem Weltall already exists, choose Option 1 and add the record number and not Option 2.

The ISFDB policy states, that we use the exact title on the title page (page 3) of a book. I own this book Als die Sterne weinten ... and on the title page it is written as Als die Sterne weinten .... Regards Rudolf Rudam 08:42, 20 December 2019 (EST)

Ok. It doesn't matter. Thanks for research. I should use for both option 1. Right? And you can make the primary verification for the paperback. :-) --Norman 08:49, 20 December 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark Sonderbände

Hi, Norman! It seems there have to be some issues to be adressed with this series.

1) As this is the 'official' continuation of the initial series: why should it form a different series? 'Sonderbände' seems to be more of the title of the publication series, not of the title series. Christian Stonecreek 23:34, 4 January 2020 (EST)

The 'Sonderbände' are both, a pub-series and 'special' novels, which are not explicit dedicated to the series 'Classics', 'Drahkon' and 'Bitwar'. The stories are located within the RD-universe, but they are independed and the protagonist 'Ren Dhark' has no role in this stories. These 'special'-series includes also short stories. In contrast to the 'Zyklus'-novels they are written only by one author and some of them by his own ideas (~50%). In the lists of the publisher HJB, they has serial numbers #1 to #29. Perhaps we can call them 'Specials'. But anyway, they are not sequential continuations of the 'Zyklus'-novels. Each of these novels has his own treatment period in an random order. --Norman 02:17, 5 January 2020 (EST)

Okay, I'll modify the series title somewhat, in a way that it's understandable for other (non German) editors. Christian Stonecreek 04:38, 5 January 2020 (EST)

Thanks --Norman 07:08, 5 January 2020 (EST)

2) Achim Mehnert's Gisol-Trilogie: this forms a series of its own, and I have transformed the three titles accordingly (since we don't record the series title in the title proper). Christian Stonecreek 23:34, 4 January 2020 (EST)

I've seen that you have modified these titels. I do not agree. The titels on titel pages are:

titel page #1 (page 1): Ren Dhark Sonderband - Die Gisol-Trilogie 1. Buch (Herausgegeben von Hajo F. Breuer)

titel page #2 (page 3): Der Jäger SF-Roman von Achim Mehnert nach einem Exposé von Hajo F. Breuer

please see also the DNB entry: https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm?method=simpleSearch&cqlMode=true&query=idn%3D969622090

I've thought, that only the titel on the titel pages are essential.

Yes, but sometimes the series title is also printed on the title page, and in this cases we don't record those, as they are already listed as a series. The starting point was a discussion about Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, where some publications for example have The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers and other only The Two Towers on their respective title page. Christian Stonecreek 04:38, 5 January 2020 (EST)

well. Than it's so. I had followed the statements in the help pages and the DNB entry. --Norman 06:57, 5 January 2020 (EST)

Additional. We can put them in an sub-series, but one level under 'Sonderbände' and not at the top-level 'RD-universe'.

--Norman 02:30, 5 January 2020 (EST)

Atlan miniseries

Hi again! Since we do need some more information on the sources, at least for the day of publication and the cover art, I have put the new submissions on hold. Please do add those to #1. Thanks, Christian Stonecreek 23:39, 4 January 2020 (EST)

done. --Norman 01:50, 5 January 2020 (EST)

Another question: What is the catalogue no 'AMXX' supposed to mean? Christian Stonecreek 05:02, 5 January 2020 (EST)

This nbr is used in perrypedia (see: https://www.perrypedia.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Quelle:AM1) or (https://www.perrypedia.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Quelle:AM13). A=Atlan; M=Miniserie; Range: #1 to #60 (like the serial nbr. on the covers). But we can adapt this to another scheme. But than we have to adapt it also for at least for Centauri (AT01-AT12 -> AC01-AC12) because Traversan uses also AT01-AT12. --Norman 06:38, 5 January 2020 (EST)

No, it's okay! I was just curious. Christian Stonecreek 11:58, 6 January 2020 (EST)

Shepherd's Im Auftrag des Imperiums

Hi, it'd seem that with 94 pages this is likely not a novel, but a novella (and thus the publication would be a CHAPBOOK). Do you have a rough estimate of the word count at hand, or do you know something other about the length? Christian Stonecreek 13:08, 6 January 2020 (EST)

I do not know exactly how many words it would be. So i will scan some pages with an OCR-reader software and give you the result later. Ok? I suppose you are right and its a novella-length. The size is: 22 x 15 cm; (little bit smaller than a PR-magazine), but binded like a trade-paperback ~0,8 cm thick; the paper quality is high (no rotation printing); the book covers are flexible but thicker than a normal paperback. please see [4]. please wait for OCR-scan and word-counting. --Norman 14:33, 6 January 2020 (EST)

Two pages has 688 words. So one book has round about 30.000 words. --Norman 14:39, 6 January 2020 (EST)

There are more books is this format! ex. 54 - Sternendschungel Galaxis. --Norman 14:43, 6 January 2020 (EST)

Okay, I approved and tranformed the title. Christian Stonecreek 02:46, 7 January 2020 (EST)

I also removed the publication series, as this appears to be the name of the title series: both things are quite different and shouldn't be mixed up. Christian Stonecreek 03:00, 7 January 2020 (EST)

Yes, it's more important to have a series name for grouping within the series. Let's discuss the general arguments of this topic later and separatly! Perhaps per e-mail or so. Because at this moment i've not understood all of your arguments. --Norman 03:09, 7 January 2020 (EST)

It's best to discuss things here: this way other editors & moderators get an idea what's going on.

The publication series is usually marked out by the publisher, most likely on the copyright page (like with Heyne SF & F) or on the back (like with Bastei Lübbe). A title series most likely is named on the cover or the title page (or in the advertising text on the back, or even not at all). Christian Stonecreek 03:20, 7 January 2020 (EST)

Ok for a discussion within isfdb, but not here, because it will be more general and independent from this Chapbook. Where will be the best place for that? But before, can you give me a link to some guidelines? --Norman 05:20, 7 January 2020 (EST)

@Christian Stonecreek: Can you please confirm the actual state of [5]? Is is ok, that when looking to Konrad Schaef the novella appears now two times? --Norman 08:14, 7 January 2020 (EST)

Well, it doesn't! The title seems to appear two times, but the title types are different! See the CHAPBOOK definition for an explanation. Christian Stonecreek 11:10, 7 January 2020 (EST)

I can't find anything in the CHAPBOOK definition which explains my question above. I know about the different titel types and this explains the two appearence. My question to you (or others) should better be: Are the the two appearence best practice or is there a better way? I prefer to ask too much once rather than too little, even if I might get the displeasure of one or the other moderator. --Norman 16:24, 7 January 2020 (EST)

If you are asking if it is normal to have both a novella and a chapbook record, then yes - that is how it is supposed to be. It is not showing the novella twice - the chapbook section of the page always contains only containers so it is not a duplicate really - it just shares the name of the novella. Or do you mean something else? Annie 16:29, 7 January 2020 (EST)

Thanks, that was what i've understood. But i was a little bit confused about. And i was unsure if I could do the same in the future. I wanted to pick up a confirmation. Thanks Annie. --Norman 16:35, 7 January 2020 (EST)

Chapbooks can be a bit... confusing :) Think of them as "ISFDB containers that allow us to record books which contain a single story or poem" or "ISFDB record which is used for collections with only 1 story or poem". We do not need that for novels because novels are usually printed on their own but until a few years ago, stories generally did not get published on their own (not in English anyway - what this DB was initially designed for). So when they started showing a lot more - both from the international field and from the newly discovered cheap ways to publish, the DB came up with that. It gets a bit to get used to but once you get the idea, you can just ignore the chapbooks on almost any page. Hope that makes (some) sense. Annie 16:50, 7 January 2020 (EST)

And yet another useful way to look at CHAPBOOKs is to view them as a (one-author) COLLECTION but with only one piece of shortfiction. Christian Stonecreek 02:03, 8 January 2020 (EST)

Thanks for the comments. Slowly but surely I understand the connections more and more in detail esp. with CHAPBOOKs. --Norman 04:34, 8 January 2020 (EST)

I have put the recently Ren Dhark entered titles (first published by Unitall) into the already existing series. This again was necessary because of a mix-up with the publication series.

ISFDB is quite multi-layered and complex (far more than any other bibliographical site that I know of). The thing is that all of the layers are meaningful and shouldn't be mixed up.

Title series are quite different from a publication series the respective titles may be published in. Especially the former aren't only independent from the latter, they also should be independent from the publisher (that's because a title will eventually published by a whole different publisher).

In a similar case we had just recently major problems caused by an editor who put titles into two different title series (each titled with the publisher as a part of the name), causing titles to appear two times in the database. Christian Stonecreek 02:02, 9 January 2020 (EST)

I've noticed this. It's not a big issue for me. I can step forward in this way for all resting volumes inside this involved series.

To prevent addition discussions i've just added the first volume of the next two 'Ren Dhark series'. Both are chapbook-series like 'Forschungsraumer Charr'. please see [6] and [7]. In my interpretation both are new series! Can you please take a short look on them. I hope you can share this interpretation. --Norman 05:45, 9 January 2020 (EST)

All seems to be good so far.

But on the matter hinted to above: it's really better to keep title series and publication series separated as far as possible, since the first refer to the title level and the second to the publications. The various Ren Dhark cycles are title series, and thus shouldn't be listed also as pub. series. Previous experience has shown that all mix-ups have caused mistakes and misunderstandings. Christian Stonecreek 06:20, 9 January 2020 (EST)

I have obtained some volumes from the Bitwar and the Drakhon cycles (and looked into some others): there is no hint of a publication series of the respective names (which is needed to install it). I'll remove the series from those that I have. Please do so for the other publications. Christian Stonecreek 17:02, 9 January 2020 (EST)

From which understandable criterion do they derive whether it is a pub series or not. In the examples "Drahkon" and "Bitwar" mentioned, the logos on the covers are designed differently. Furthermore, each book series has its own numbering and on the titel pages the series are named. Please specify exactly what you want to have changed and which series it should concern. At the moment I can't see any difference. --Norman 17:45, 9 January 2020 (EST)

First: there seems to be a interchanging of 'h' and 'k' in the titling of one of the cycles: it is Drakhon not Drahkon. I'll change the title of the series. Could you please take a look if any fiction / publication titles have the same problem? Well, as told above: the Bitwar and Drakhon mentioning on the respective covers and title pages is for the title series, and there's no additional mentioning of a publication series. Christian Stonecreek 23:55, 9 January 2020 (EST)

After deleting the pub series entries and their numbers are e.g. the annual pages of the publisher HJB have become confusing (see [8] or [9]). This means that although the information about the row name and number per volume is known, it should now remain unmentioned. How should one recognize at first glance which pub-series a volume belongs to? Do you really want to invent an imaginary catalog ID that you could use to orient yourself? We agree at least on the point that it makes no sense to include the name of the series in the title. Norman 06:25, 10 January 2020 (EST)

Well, the volumes don't belong to a publication series, this is only the same situation as with other publishers, Heyne (as of today), or most of the hardcover publishers in general (which HJB is one example of). Christian Stonecreek 06:43, 10 January 2020 (EST)

accepted --Norman 07:17, 10 January 2020 (EST)

The previous pub-series entries have provided much more transparency and there are no technical problems with it. I can only understand the point that these partially redundant entries could be confusing for inexperienced users. Norman 06:25, 10 January 2020 (EST)

This is partially correct: technically, there's no problem with them, the problem is in our internal logic (as explained above), and the rules which demand that a publication series has to be stated in some way by a publisher. Christian Stonecreek 06:43, 10 January 2020 (EST)

Can you give an example on which a publisher stated a pub-series? Where these rules are written in isfdb? --Norman 07:17, 10 January 2020 (EST)

As referred to above, where I stated Heyne SF & F and the publisher Bastei Lübbe.

See here for the rules. Christian

I have read these rules and their extended help text (Help:Screen:…) several times since our first discussions. But I do not find any bans or recommendations regarding similar series names (Series / Pub-Series). Why are your arguments (no mixup; ...) not written down? Furthermore one statement is: A Publication series is a group of publications marked out by the Publisher in some way.. What mean "some way" by your mentioned examples Heyne or by Bastei? Which criterion was decisive? - Pub series name on the cover / back / backcover? & - Pub series name on the title page? & - Pub serialization on the copyright page ? or what else?

At publisher Bastei Lübbe there exist is isfdb Pubseries like "Mondstation 1999" or "Der-Sechs-Millionen-Mann". Do they has also been elimated (according to your interpretations)? --Norman 11:34, 10 January 2020 (EST)

Are this informations helpful for stating the series of the HJB-Verlag? Interesting also for all other german publishers. --Norman 12:19, 10 January 2020 (EST)

Well, no one denies that they published a series, it's only a title series. I do think that we are on one level setting - for example - the 'Bitwar' titles as a title series. So does HJB. But they don't state a different or a second publication series of that name anywhere in or on the book (the cover just gives the same information as the title page.

I think much of the confusion comes from the fact that no other bibliographical site makes a distinction between titles and publications (at least not by directly linking the two concepts). I know it's tempting to copy the structure of a site one is used to to our site, but it doesn't work that easy over here.

Both concepts stand diametrically against each other: a title (that may be part of a title series), may be published by several publishers (and thus be part of several publication series, see here for an example: but note that none of the publication series has something to do with the title series). And vice versa a publication series usually publishes diverse titles (some of them may be part of different title series: like Heyne SF & F for example published titles from diverse universes ('Hainish', 'Foundation' and many more). You won't find many cases where it's different, and if so, they likely will have been also entered erroneously. Christian Stonecreek 13:36, 10 January 2020 (EST)

What speaks against the introduction of (fictitious) catalog ID instead? --Norman 06:25, 10 January 2020 (EST)

I'd say nothing speaks against it. Christian Stonecreek 06:43, 10 January 2020 (EST)

OK. First good news today. --Norman 07:17, 10 January 2020 (EST)

More on series & series: I have obtained two volumes of the 'Classic-Zyklus' and found no mentioning of the series in or on the books. This means that the according publication series was added erroneously, and will have to be removed.

It seems that instead the 'Ren Dhark' title series can or should be renamed as 'Classic-Zyklus'. This likely will meet your intentions. Christian Stonecreek 10:40, 23 January 2020 (EST)

Even if it turns out that the "Classic Cycle" can be a series here at isfdb.org, I am of the opinion that the 98 booklets should not be given this name, but only the 16 hardcover. I would then call the novels "Ren Dhark Orginal" or similar. --Norman 05:49, 3 February 2020 (EST)

Well, it seems that HaJo Breuer established this name in his prefaces, and in fact refers to the story told in the magazine incarnation as well as the one printed in the revised hardcover edition. Christian Stonecreek 09:35, 3 February 2020 (EST)

Re Ren Dhark Lexikon: As - according to your notes - this seems to be a purely fictional in-universe title, ISFDB would not categorize this as nonfiction, but as fiction (NOVEL, ANTHOLOGY or COLLECTION). (This would be an example for a genuine nonfiction item). What's your opinion? Christian Stonecreek 10:40, 23 January 2020 (EST)

This is only a dictionary - like the Perry Rhodan Lexikons. In my opinion it is never a NOVEL / ANTHOLOGY or never a COLLECTION. It includes a short "Vorwort" (p.5,6) from the author/collector Heiko Langhans and then around 3000 key words with a brief description and references to the relevant sources. If nessesary please feel free to change what you mean it should be changed. I don't care anymore. --Norman 05:49, 3 February 2020 (EST)

You are right: it is a dictionary. The thing is that it is a fictional dictionary - with no reference to the real world apart from the preface (but other fictional works have prefaces, too: this for example) - and this puts it apart from a work like this. I know that this irritates some people, but it is grounded in the somewhat other way of thinking that is reflected in the way we organize the entries: fiction vs. nonfiction. And fiction (i. e. a story packed into a specially created 'universe') can take many forms: that of 'normal' stories, of letters, of solo roleplaying books, and even that of dictionaries. It took some time for me, too, to dig into this. Christian Stonecreek 09:35, 3 February 2020 (EST)

Okay, made the transformation. Another way of explanation (which is unusual for the German mind): NONFICTION means that a text is not fictional - so a fictional dictionary can't be NONFICTION per plain logic. It is the content that defines here at ISFDB the title type, not the form. Christian Stonecreek 15:04, 5 February 2020 (EST)

Title mix-up

Hi, I do suspect an erroneous titling for this publication, as you write in the notes of a difference between cover and title page. Can you take a look? Christian Stonecreek 03:16, 7 January 2020 (EST)

First the facts:

a.) Titel on cover: Zwischen gestern und morgen / Echo aus dem Weltall (I've higlighted the difference.)

b.) Titel page: Zwischen gestern und morgen / Echo aus dem Weltraum (I've higlighted the difference.)

c.) based on this original paperback from Kelter: Echo aus dem Weltall

(my) implication: part of the titels on titel page was wrong! (part of) titel on cover is in correspondence with the original.

Hopefull that you agreed to this. --Norman 05:15, 7 January 2020 (EST)

Well, sorry, but no. The source for the title of an ISFDB entry is the one stated on the title page, any different title stated elsewhere in a given publication is irrelevant (but it's good to state the difference in the publication's notes section). So, the title should be changed accordingly. Christian Stonecreek 11:18, 7 January 2020 (EST)

Done. --Norman 16:36, 7 January 2020 (EST)

Horst Maxeimer vs Horst Maxeiner

Hi, are these two persons or one, and is one of them just a typo?--Dirk P Broer 20:51, 19 February 2020 (EST)

This is one person with the legal name Horst Maxeiner. The two times wrong written name (on titel & foto) was published in RD magazine #85. --Norman 04:34, 24 February 2020 (EST)

Thanks for the info, Norman. I approved of the varianting of name (and varianted the Maxeimer title to a Maxeiner parent). Christian Stonecreek 07:18, 24 February 2020 (EST)

Perry Rhodan Nr. 1 (3.Auflage)

Hi, you deleted a valuable note on the source of the day of publication, so I added it anew. Please be careful when deleting sourced notes / data. Also, the page for the introductory essay should be p. 2, not 'fep', please refer to the help pages, for example here. I did a correction for that, too. Christian Stonecreek 12:33, 16 November 2020 (EST)

Sorry for that. And thanks for advice & correction. Norman 12:43, 16 November 2020 (EST)

No problem; magazines are a bit tricky: they do have their own special rules. Christian Stonecreek 12:56, 16 November 2020 (EST)

Perry Rhodan Nr. 42 (5.Auflage)

Hi, please remember that the 'Leserkontaktseite' essay has to be varianted to the parent name William Voltz (and the language for the new authors / artists has to be determined). There's also the difficulty to determine which cartoonist has done which cartoon. You have done that for the first one (giving Sabine Jehle as creator), but it seems that may be questioned: I have other examples of 'Leserkontaktseite' where the order of the stated persons didn't match the order of the cartoons (the determination was in some cases possible by looking at the signature, but none of the cartoons in the issue we have here seems to bear a signature). Do you have any more information? Christian Stonecreek 03:49, 26 November 2020 (EST)

1.) 'Leserkontaktseite' My still pending edit [10] should create the missing connetion to W. Voltz. Right?

2.) The language to the new artists can only be edited after the creation! Is this not the best practice?

3.) 'Cartoons' I've oriented me by the sequence in 'Vorwort' done by W. Voltz. You are rigth, in all five cartoons there is no signature. And there are no more titels or other criterias which determinate which artis has created which cartoons. So what should be done in this case? Better let them unmentioned?

Norman 07:12, 26 November 2020 (EST)

Oh, yes, and if you want to merge magazine issues with an existing title: this is possible via the advanced (title) search: you can search by quite a bunch of criteria and then merge the appropriate ones (but be cautionary: with the Perry Rhodan universe magazines, the history of editors is quite complex). I have already merged #42 with the other title cumulation of issues already entered. Christian Stonecreek 04:41, 26 November 2020 (EST)

Fine for doing this. I've tryed the advanced search, but the amount of results was every time too big. Can you please give me a hint which criterias are very helpful? Norman 07:12, 26 November 2020 (EST)

Sure: I use title (contains) 'Perry Rhodan', title type EDITOR (that's the one for magazines) and the appropriate title year.

I overlooked your submission for creating a variant: there are much submissions in the pipeline. The hint for the language was just a cautionary hint: if you'd gone to edit the author entry anyway, that's great!

To let the cartoons go unmentioned wouldn't be necessary, but since we still can't be sure who created what item, it'd be best to let them stay as "Cartoon (Perry Rhodan #XXX") and add a note about the unsureness.

And thanks for getting involved again! Christian Stonecreek 08:08, 26 November 2020 (EST)

Many thanks. Another request: I would like to fill some more of the existing gaps, but it is very exhausting to wait days and days for releasing the pending changes to be approved. Norman 03:19, 28 November 2020 (EST)

I know: right now, we do have something like a flood of submissions, combined with a shortage of moderators. Christian Stonecreek 05:52, 28 November 2020 (EST)

Perry Rhodan Nr. 71 (5.Auflage)

Hi, Norman! Sorry to inform you that I just deleted your recently added #71 of the series: I just had added this issue about 20 minutes earlier to your submission (8:56 vs. 9:15). I had the feeling it'd be safe to enter it as there wasn't a submission by you when I looked at that time. Sorry again: As upcoming I'll only add the issues #91 & #95 of the second cycle 'Atlan & Arkon'. Christian Stonecreek 12:47, 21 December 2020 (EST)

I've submitted #71 two days earlyier (not 20 min.)! But the edit-task has been released then 20 min later. I'm not amused about this. You know it's not the first time. I'm going to take a break now. I thought I could help and fill in the gaps. but under these circumstances I really don't feel welcome. Thank you for apologizing. Please understand that it is the time-consuming circumstances that are bothering me and not this incident. --Norman 14:06, 21 December 2020 (EST)

Sorry about this. Take a Christmas break, and do think about coming back sometime after then. I'll try to take more care about things in the line, and right now there aren't that much issues of PR 5. Auflage concerning the cycles 3-7 at my hand (I'd say about 40 all in all), and I'll gradually work through them. Christian Stonecreek 14:42, 21 December 2020 (EST)

Geheimplan (für) Quinto-Center

Hi, I changed the title to the shorter version: DNB, WorldCat, Perrypedia and the cover have no 'für' (I also dropped the note that DNB should have no entry: it has, but you may haven't found it - because of the supposedly wrong title?). Please review when you are back. Thanks, Christian Stonecreek 16:15, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

Thanks for correcting. --Norman (talk) 11:36, 29 January 2023 (EST)