Help talk:Wiki Conventions

Superpowers

We will need to clarify what superpowers Al and I claim in addition to our uncanny ability to install software. Ahasuerus 03:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I figured leaving it vague would leave it to your good judgment, while making it clear that it was very rare that any such would be exercised. Obviously policy changes that aren't technically possible to implement in software would come under the veto, as would policies involving excessive legal risk, as Al (as the owner of the domain) would be the person most likely at risk if any risk there were. -DES ^Talk 14:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I like your rewordings, in general. The reason I included "(or should not)" was to acknowledge that sometimes moderators are accorded a degree of deference in wiki discussions that in theory they should not get. But perhaps it is best not to mention that in such a document. -DES ^Talk 14:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Summaries

How far do people think this is from being ready for prime time? -DES ^Talk 14:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

No complaints about what's there, but there are some additions I'd like to see. For instance, you once explained to me that changing an existing "Summary" on an edit broke stuff if I changed the bit between "/*" and "*/" so I now add stuff only after that. But a lot of people still get caught out when they post a duplicate-titled section. And what's the convention when you want to fix the section title, like here where I'd quite like "Opnions" to read "Opinions"? ;-) BLongley 18:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll describe the issues related to section editing, headers, and summaries. Thanks for pointing out a gap. -DES ^Talk 20:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

See Help:Edit summary#Section editing. -DES ^Talk 21:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Changes made to Help:Conventions. Do they cover the matter? -DES ^Talk 21:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh and if your section edit changes the section title, change the summery within /* */ to match, and the new link will work (although old links for previous edits won't). -DES ^Talk 21:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

User page

Actually, one thing I'd like clarification on after seeing Jeremy G. Byrne's Wikipedia user page (go read, it's fun). As it's a user page I think it would be fine if an ISFDB editor created such for him/herself only, in his own user area - we vary an awful lot on how much we reveal about ourselves - but this might conflict with advice on excessive biblio pages for authors. Some editors are authors too, but I think "use your 'own space for what you like (within reason)" can coexist with Author Bio Page rules. BLongley 18:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I have, in the past, removed what amounted to self-blurbs from User pages, for example this edit and this edit. I hope no one would think that this sort of thing was proper in user space. I would have no problems with something like the Wikipedia user page you point to, although most editors here probably won't go to that amount of trouble. -DES ^Talk 20:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

While What the ISFDB Wiki is not discourages advertising of books, etc. It's silent on advertising for authors. The convention's page can remedy this by asking that authors, artists, and others that are listed in the ISFDB database should use the "Bio" page though can link to it from their user page. If someone is unpublished but is working in specfict then their user page bio must follow the guidelines listed in {{BioHeader}}. --Marc Kupper|talk 04:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok I can add language to that effect. -DES ^Talk 13:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Language added, is it ok? Also I have proposed to add anti-advertising language to Help:Contents/Purpose, for details see Help talk:Contents/Purpose -DES ^Talk 13:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Ready?

(unindent) Any further comments? Anything else left out? Any objections to this going live? -DES ^Talk 16:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Minor edits

split off from thread above. -DES ^Talk 19:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Would this conventions page be a place to mention the use of the "minor edit" flag, which was discussed on the moderator page? MHHutchins 18:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. I will add such a section. -DES ^Talk 18:40, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Section added. -DES ^Talk 19:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Editing the User Page Associated with Another User

split off from thread above -DES ^Talk 17:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I would question the ambiguity of "Except to deal with violations of these principles, it is not usual for an editor to edit the user page associated with another user, except by request of that user" with the later statement that a user page "may be freely edited by all editors if there is a good reason." I think the latter statement pretty much gives license to anyone who has a personal "good reason". The first statement gives only one reason "to deal with violations". MHHutchins 15:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The intent was to say that such edits were unusual but not forbidden. I'll try to refine the wording. -DES ^Talk 16:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It now reads "...may be edited by any editor if there is a particularly good reason. Such edits, however, are quite unusual." "freely" has been removed. how does that sound? -DES ^Talk 16:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Removing that word ("freely") is an improvement, but it might be better to bring those two sentences together, giving the exceptions in the same place. MHHutchins 17:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

How about this:

"Even though we speak of "his user page" or "Joe's user page", keep in mind that all Wiki pages, including user pages, are provided to serve the purposes of the ISFDB. These pages belong to the project, and not to any particular user. Except to deal with violations of those principles stated above or by request of the user, editors should be cautious about editing the user page associated with another user. Any disputes about such edits can be brought before the community forum."

MHHutchins 17:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

That works for me. -DES ^Talk 17:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Changes made. MHHutchins 18:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Editing Help pages

I'd prefer that the Editing Help pages section lean towards Wikipedia's "be bold" editing guideline than the "use restraint and discuss first" emphasis. Part of the reasoning is that it's sometimes hard for a person to visualize the impact of a particular change until they see it in action. A secondary issue is that many threads drift around without resolution. Thus, be bold, make the change, and, while you can defend it on a talk/discussion page, don't get emotionally attached to it. --Marc Kupper|talk 03:40, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

This is so strange that I've had to read it more than once to make sure I understand your intentions clearly. You believe that it's alright for someone to change anything in our Help pages and then wait until after the change is made to defend it, and then only after someone else stumbles upon it and questions it on one of the community pages. The perfect defense would then be "it's already established in the help pages". I think you're missing the meaning of Wikipedia's Be Bold statement. They're talking about updating the encyclopedia pages. I wonder how fast that philosophy would last if someone tried to change any of their Help or Policy pages. Talk about "visualizing the impact"! MHHutchins 04:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

This "restraint, discuss first" policy is copied closely from Wikipedia's custom about its policy' and guideline pages, to which the help pages here more closely correspond, IMO, Furthermore, one reason behind the "be bold" philosophy is that Wikipedia retains pages histories forever, in the usual case. Thus it is easy to see who made any particular change, and how and when the current state of a page was arrived at, making undoing "bold" actions when needed easier. I might also add that in the past, when I changed help after a discussion that I thought had reached a consensus, others said that they would have preferred to be explicitly told that the help was going to be changed, in advance, as they might not agree with the change. Thus it appeared to me that the "restraint first" is how we actually operate. How many times has an R&S or CP discussion ended with "Are we agreed? Any objections to changing the help now?" or words to that effect? Lots, IIRC. -DES ^Talk 13:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that "be bold" is fine when fixing grammar/spelling on Help and Policy pages, but it wouldn't be appropriate when making substantive changes. (And we really need to make sure that our Help pages are internally consistent and not redundant.)

As an aside, Wikipedia's rules and guidelines have become quite complicated over the years. Managing large distributed projects with thousands of contributors whose identity and credentials cannot be easily verified is a new area of project management and we are still learning how to handle this beast. Wikipedia's growing pains have been considerable -- some of them are explained in The role of policies in collaborative anarchy -- and they are still struggling with the process, constantly coming up with ways to handle complex issues, e.g. the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle.

As far as "Be bold" goes, it was, to a significant extent, a reaction to the failures of more structured and slow-paced approaches, e.g. the failure of Nupedia. To the extent that it encouraged new editors to get involved starting with minor spelling and grammar fixes, it has worked well. However, the part of the policy that encouraged users to [boldly] "add facts" was less successful, which is why the policy is qualified with "but please be careful" and "but do not be reckless". In addition, Wikipedia now requires Verifiability, which is in constant tension with "be bold". There are other, more fundamental, issues with Wikipedia, but we don't need to go there at the moment. Ahasuerus 15:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The Help:Conventions page is an example of something minor that could get added to ISFDB without prior discussion. The current practice is to put {{NotFinal}} on all new content and it's worded so that the default is that the content "has not yet obtained a solid consensus" and "This notice will be removed when the page obtains a reasonable consensus on its contents." It's fostering a sense of WP:OWN in that editor's need to get permission from active participants (usually moderators) to make these non-substantial changes.

I'm advocating that the default be an assumption of consensus. For example, with {{NotFinal}} it would be "This page, or text, was introduced to ISFDB on day Monthname year. Please be aware that it's still being polished. All editors are welcome to contribute to this page and to it's talk page." The main difference is to shift the default away from "we don't have consensus." If an editor sees a serious problem developing with the new content they can hat it with something like {{Problem}} or {{NeedConsensus}} that would say "An editor has seen something that he or she believes is a significant issue with the content of this page. Please see link to talk page section for a discussion about this. Please be aware that there may not be consensus on some of the page content."

If someone has a substantive shift of policy where it seems likely that a NeedConsensus hatting will be used then yes, it's a good idea to ask, "this is something I have in mind. Does anyone see a problem with it?" Take a look at Wikipedia's Policies and guidelines article which covers editing policy itself and says

"Such pages are taken to be accurate until a consensus process involving the general community shows otherwise. Editors should take care not to avoid making substantive changes, but are encouraged to boldly make policies clearer. Editors are expected to use their common sense in interpreting and applying these rules; those who violate the spirit of the rule may be reprimanded even if no rule has technically been broken."

The implication is the default is consensus unless the general community shows otherwise. The editor "M" has been able to significant rewrite of the article in the past two weeks. Obviously a rewrite of WP's core policy article has generated some talk page discussions and M is working with editors both on the talk page and in his edits to the main article. Had M needed to get consensus first it could have been decades before the article was rewritten. ISFDB is smaller and so we are only looking at a few weeks or months instead of decades but I don't see that as cause for the no consensus default. Sure, people will occasionally ask "did you really mean that?" and for the most part, WP and ISFDB have shown these queries are dealt with civilly even when it's apparent parties disagree. --Marc Kupper|talk 18:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit Summaries and Section editing

This section has a level of instructional detail that seems out of place compared to the rest of the page and does not seem like a "convention." I can't say I've given a lot of thought to the minutiae of dealing with sections with the same name. :-) --Marc Kupper|talk 03:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I was explicitly asked (by Bill Longley, in the early part of this thread) to include detail on how to deal with these issues. I can move this detail elsewhere and retain only a briefer guide and a pointer, if you want. Where do you want the detail, which has been asked for? -DES ^Talk 13:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Marc that this level of explanation should not be on a conventions page. Is it somewhere in the Wiki editing help section? If not, that may be a better place for it. Also, I'm assuming this page is for Wiki editing conventions and not database conventions (such as the courtesy of notifying verifiers of changes to pub records.) Is that right? MHHutchins 15:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It is put together from, and to some extent expanded & clarified from, stuff in a couple of different wiki help pages (which are linked). I'll see about finding a proper place in the wiki help to move it to, with a pointer left on the conventions page. Does that suit in principle? -DES ^Talk 17:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Wording seem good people? Further suggestions for improvement? -DES ^Talk 18:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Though I didn't want to I added some more "user instruction" to the edit-summaries section, took a look, and then whacked the entire section to focus on convention. Any instruction and detailed explanation is left for the edit summary help page. --Marc Kupper|talk 19:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I think this whack was a mistake. I won't revert, but i ask others to consider whether the more detailed version before that edit, or perhaps the one achieved in this edit isn't better. Explaining a little bit of how this feature works is IMO helpful for explaining that using edit summaries is our convention, and why. At the very least, I'd like to restore the text that describes where edit summaries appear, and a 1-2 sentence mention of section summaries, and that it is our convention to leave the automated summaries in place. -DES ^Talk 19:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to include the whacked text on the Help:Edit summary instructional page. At present the lead of that page is pretty choppy and I've run out of time to do the thinking needed to tidy up the lead while also including the whacked details either in the lead or on the page.
I saw the list of every single possible place/way edit summaries appear as a distraction from the "conventions" emphasis. User instruction does not need to be exhaustive. That's left for reference manuals or perhaps an "advanced editing" section where a user interested in such can learn the secrets of wiki wizarding.
You had a good point about conventions section edits and so added a line explaining that those too need edit summaries beyond the default summary. --Marc Kupper|talk 19:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

That is all very well -- that page, which started as a copy of the mediawiki help page, could probably use improvement. But I still think that a little more detail is desirable on the conventions page, because some users, particularly new ones, won't follow the link. And the mention of the two most important places where edit summaries appear to my mind is a significant part of the answer to "why bother with them at all?" -DES ^Talk 19:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

All pages belong to the project

The caution about User pages and user talk pages not belonging to the user is intentionally duplicated (with minor appropriate differences) under the User page and User talk page sections. This is because these are the two pages generally spoken of in the possessive ("Joe's User Page", "Sarah's talk page") and that users have been apt (both here and on other wikis) to think of and speak of as "my page" and incorrectly expect to have total control over. I wanted to make it very explicit that the "All pages belong to the project" rule applied to both user and user talk pages, and was not missed by someone just reading the section applying to one of these. Given that purpose, does anyone still object to the near duplication remaining on the page? -DES ^Talk 13:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I had removed the text as it was a full duplicate and appeared to be an editing accident. The new wording you used is fine. --Marc Kupper|talk 16:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Move this to the Conventions's talk page

Can we move this block entire discussion about the content of Help:Conventions to Help talk:Conventions and to just leave a link to it here? That way the history of discussion about that page is on it's talk page rather than eventually being buried in the Community Portal archives. --Marc Kupper|talk 19:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Will do. Good idea. -DES ^Talk 19:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. -DES ^Talk 19:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)