User talk:Stewartcbaker

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Welcome!

Hello, Stewartcbaker, and welcome to the ISFDB Wiki! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will insert your name and the date. If you need help, check out the community portal, or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!.--Dirk P Broer 19:40, 22 September 2018 (EDT)

Anya Johanna DeNiro

Hi, I'm a bit at a loss for what you are trying to accomplish with the change in preferred name. Isfdb policy is to grant a most common name used in publications as the so-called canonical name, regardless whether that is the 'true' name of the author or not. And even when 'Anya Johanna DeNiro' were to be that canonical name, then would all pre name change publications still have the original name as 'as published by', as we do not falsify history. See e.g. R. L. Fanthorpe as an example what it means in our database to have multiple names under which your work came out. Any name change for Fanthorpe would not 'solve' anything either, all work would come under the new name just as it appeared under the old (minus one -the change- and with one added: Fanhorpe, the original name). I hope I've made myself clear, if not do not be afraid to ask questions.--Dirk P Broer 19:56, 22 September 2018 (EDT)

Hi Dirk,
A policy that treats somebody's gender identity as a pseudonym implies that their gender identity is fake. That has the potential to be incredibly harmful to transgender people, who already face significant bullying and attacks online.
I would encourage you to consider changing your policy to whatever that person has most recently self-identified as, similar to Wikipedia's policy on gender identity: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Gender_identity
If you're not familiar with transgender issues, I know this can seem confusing and unnecessary. But although it might require a little bit more work for ISFDB it's really a small change, and it can really have a big impact on transgender authors. Here's an article that talks about the negative effects being referred to by birth name can have on transgender people: https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/deadnaming#media
I don't think you would need to worry about retroactive changes, but marking a person's transgender name as a pseudonym is something else altogether, at least to me. If you take a look at Charlie Jane Anders page, her previous publications don't display her current name, so I'm not sure why this should be different from a programming perspective.
I would be happy to talk with you more about this if that would be helpful. You can feel free to email me at stewart.c.baker@gmail.com if that's easier than a talk page discussion. Stewartcbaker 14:44, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
Let me make sure that I understand the proposal correctly. The current policy says "The canonical name is the name under which a particular author's bibliography is organized. For authors who publish under multiple names, the canonical name is the most recognized name for that author within the genre." For example, see James Tiptree, Jr.'s and Murray Leinster's bibliographies, which are organized under what was the author's best known in-genre pseudonym.
Your proposal is to change the policy so that bibliographies would be organized under "whatever that person has most recently self-identified as", right? If so, then I suggest you post it on the Rules and standards discussions page. Ahasuerus 15:03, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
The issue is the word pseudonym. In Tiptree's case, it makes sense for that to be her base name. However, Tiptree was not to my knowledge transgender. She published under what was actually a pseudonym.
In Anya and Charlie Jane's case, the name change is not due to a pseudonym, but due to a gender identity that no longer matches that of their birth name. Conflating this with a pseudonym has the potential to cause actual harm to these authors. Stewartcbaker 16:16, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
I see. It sounds like it's a terminological issue then.
The term "Pseudonym" as used by the ISFDB covers a variety of scenarios, some of them unusual. For example, consider Murray Leinster's bibliography. His legal name was "William Fitzgerald Jenkins". He published a huge amount of fiction (hundreds of stories) under his full legal name as well as by "Murray Leinster", "William Fitzgerald", "Will F. Jenkins", and "Will Jenkins". Since the majority of his SF output was as by "Murray Leinster", that's what we use as his canonical name. The rest of his bylines, including his legal name, are listed as pseudonyms. Similarly, "Мюррей Лейнстер" and "マレー・ラインスター" are listed as pseudonyms even though they are just transliterations of "Murray Leinster" in Russian and Japanese respectively.
There are hundreds and thousands of other cases where the term "pseudonym" is used to describe spelling variations that are normally not thought of as pseudonyms. For example, "Stanislaw Lem" is set up as a pseudonym of "Stanisław Lem".
We are aware that it can be a bit confusing to people who are not familiar with the way the ISFDB data is organized. There is an ISFDB feature request (FR 348) to "differentiate pseudonym types". It reads:
We haven't had a thorough discussion of the proposed functionality, so we don't have a solid design yet. Ahasuerus 18:05, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
That said, I recognize that this is not intentional but sure to what is still a rapidly changing set of norms in the real world. Also, I'm obviously an outsider to this organisation and have a limited understanding of how this change would be made it what it would affect. I am not by any means an expert on transgender issues either, although I do know a fair bit about the topic.
If you all would be open to suggestions for a policy change (and it's great that you seem to be!) Stewartcbaker 16:16, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
Oh sure, we have changed our policies over the years. Our goal is to create accurate and comprehensive SF bibliographies, which are essentially reflections of certain (mostly publishing-related) activities in the real world. When the world changes, we try to reflect the changes in our system. For example, back when the ISFDB project started in 1995, we didn't list self-published and vanity-published books; the policy was changed in the early 2000s with the rise of print-on-demand books. Similarly, we changed our policy in 2006 to include certain types of e-books and audio books. Later on we changed the policy yet again to include even more types of e-books, then webzines. And so on and so forth -- see Rules and standards changelog for a list of recent changes. Ahasuerus 18:21, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
I will get in touch with some people who are and see if we can put together something more useful and comprehensive, and then I'll propose that in the policy page. It may be that delinking a transgender author from their birth name would be the simplest and least harmful option--although that may be less than ideal, too.
The reason I suggested this change, by the way, is because people use ISFDB to compile lists of publications elsewhere on the web. I saw a page at file770 which listed a 2018 story of Anya's under her birth name, despite the fact that the publication itself used the correct name for her. So this is definitely a policy at present that can cause problems for transgender authors Stewartcbaker 16:16, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
We always credit authors the way they are credited in publications, give or take some stylistic differences like "r a heinlein" vs. "R. A. Heinlein". For pseudonyms we then set up a "variant title relationship" using the author's canonical name. If one of our bibliographic entries doesn't credit the name as it appears in the publication, please let us know and we'll correct it. Ahasuerus 18:28, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
Thank you again for your consideration on this important issue!
Stewartcbaker 16:16, 23 September 2018 (EDT)

For what it's worth, Anya Johanna DeNiro is both Anya's legal name, and the name she is most well-known as in the genre, so far as I can tell. She has more publications under her birth name, but I personally had never even seen her legal name before I spotted it here on ISFDB, and all her author social media and website stuff list Anya as her name, and that's the name all her publications appear under. Stewartcbaker 13:12, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Checking her ISFDB bibliography, I see 1 novel, 3 collections, 41 stories, 3 poems, one 2-part essay and 2 reviews published as by "Alan DeNiro". I also see 2 stories published as by "Anya Johanna DeNiro" and 5 anthologies co-edited as by "Ratbastards", a collective pseudonym. Unless we are missing something, it looks like the vast majority of her output -- over 95% -- has appeared as by "Alan DeNiro". (Collective pseudonyms like "Ratbastards" can't be canonical names in the ISFDB, so they don't count for the purposes of this discussion.)
Of course, things can always change. For example, back when the ISFDB project started in 1995, we had Margaret Ogden's canonical name set to "Megan Lindholm", her primary working name at the time. Right around the same time she began publishing books as by "Robin Hobb" and we had it set up as a pseudonym. Eventually she became much better known as "Robin Hobb" and we swapped the canonical name and the pseudonym. If DeNiro continues publishing SF as "Anya Johanna DeNiro" -- or if her older works are reprinted under the new name -- we will do the same thing as per the current rule about "the most recognized name for that author within the genre".
Sometimes we fall behind simply because we fail to notice the change. For example, we still have Deborah Cooke's canonical name listed as "Claire Delacroix". (It was the name that she used when published by Tor in 2008-2010 while her Signet books were being simultaneously published as by "Deborah Cooke".) Since then, she has published a lot more books as by "Deborah Cooke", so we really ought to change her canonical name. We just haven't gotten around to it yet. Let me wander over to ISFDB:Moderator noticeboard and ask for volunteers. It's a time-consuming process since every title needs to be unlinked and/or relinked. Ahasuerus 14:17, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
Thanks! If you can explain the process to me, I can probably help out. I haven't used ISFDB as an editor but I have edited on other Wikis in the past. Stewartcbaker 14:46, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
Are you offering to help with Deborah Cooke's bibliography? If so, I appreciate the offer, but I am afraid swapping a pseudonym and a canonical name is one of the more complex tasks in the system, so it would be very difficult for a new editor to handle. We already have a volunteer, so things should be sorted out shortly.
Re: the ISFDB's use of Wiki software, it's a complex issue. We use Wiki software for discussions (like this one), for managing cover scans and for certain other project pages. However, the actual bibliographic data is stored and displayed by a separate, homegrown system which uses a different database layout and a different programming language. Homegrown systems are a double-edged sword: they allow for more flexibility, but they also require a lot more TLC than an off-the-shelf system (like a Wiki) would require.
As far as explaining the editing process goes, Help:Getting Started is a good place to start. Help:Screen:NewPub covers the process of entering new publications. Help:Contents is sort of "Help Central" and links to all kinds of other Help pages, notably Help:How to and Help:ScreenList.
In addition, all ISFDB pages have an "Editing Tools" section in the navigation bar on the left. If you click one of the links, e.g. "Edit This Pub", it will take you to an editing page. Most fields should have a question mark next to their labels. If you hover your cursor over the question mark, it will give you a brief summary of what is supposed to be entered in the field. If you click the question mark, it will take you to the relevant Help page. Feel free to try things -- every submission has to be approved by a moderator before it is integrated into the database, so an erroneous submission will be caught and rejected. I recommend explaining what you are trying to do in the "Note to Moderator" field, especially early on, since it will save you and the reviewing moderator time :) Ahasuerus 18:38, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

I'm not sure what your criteria are for establishing canonical name beyond that kind of vague clause, but if you can let me know what kind of evidence you need I would be happy to supply it. Keeping her birth name as the canonical one is hugely insulting to her, and has the potential to cause her harm from others who are not well-intentioned. Stewartcbaker 13:12, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Example of title with incorrect name listed

Putting this in its own section since the nested quotes are getting confusing.

Although for ISFDB's purposes listing a title as by a person's "pseudonym" (really, an alternate name) and linking that to their canonical name may be sufficient to show the relationship between titles and alternate names, the problem has to do with how these appear to the casual browser. Stewartcbaker 12:31, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

A fresh perspective is always welcome. Many ISFDB editors have been working on this project for many years and have become so used to the way things work that they have become second nature. Sometimes it takes a new editor or a new user to point out that some things are obscure, ambiguous or misleading. For example, a few weeks ago we rewrote the Help pages which cover serializations based on feedback from a new editor. Ahasuerus 13:35, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
I totally get that. :) Stewartcbaker 14:59, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

For example, for Anya, Faint Voices, Increasingly Desperate, shows up under her (incorrect) birth name as well as under her current (correct) name: http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?2386942 VS http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?2386424 Stewartcbaker 12:31, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

For titles whose author credit differs from the canonical author name in the database, the ISFDB creates two title records: one for the name which was used in the publication and another one for the canonical author name. For example, consider this letter which James Tiptree, Jr. sent to Locus under her legal name, "Alice Sheldon". We have two records for it, one under "James Tiptree, Jr." and one under "Alice Sheldon". They are both correct, they just capture different aspects of the same data, i.e. how it was credited in Locus vs. the canonical name of the author. We use the same "variant title" mechanism for different forms of work titles and translations. Ahasuerus 13:29, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

This gets especially bad when looking at tables of contents, such as the one for Shimmer which included that title: http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?671037 Stewartcbaker 12:31, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

That's how variants are currently displayed in the Contents section of Publication pages: "<story name> by <canonical name> [as by <pseudonym>]". Ahasuerus 13:42, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Although "as by alternate name" might be clearer to the ISFDB insider, someone checking through this from the outside is going to see that Faint Voices, Increasingly Desperate, is written by someone called Alan, and skim the rest of the link. Stewartcbaker 12:31, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

What would be your preferred way of displaying pseudonymous stories that would make it more clear? Ahasuerus 13:42, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
Since it's a closer match to the publication itself, how about: <story name> by <pseudonym> [alternate name of <canonical name>]". ? Although frankly, that is still very problematic for transgender authors, it is at least less likely to cause confusion outside ISFDB when people are lazy with copy-pasting. Stewartcbaker 14:59, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
An interesting thought. Over the last few years we have added a number of sub-fields to the Contents section of Publication pages in order to support serializations, translations, etc. The end result may be confusing in certain cases.
<story name> by <canonical name> [as by <pseudonym>] is actually a relatively straightforward scenario, but consider this Japanese anthology. The order of sub-fields in the Contents section is as follows:
  • <translated title> <canonical author name> <canonical title of the story> <pseudonym/transliterated author name>
That's an odd way of ordering sub-fields, if you think about it. After checking how some other online bibliographies handle these issues, e.g. La Tercera Fundación, it occurs to me that it might be better to split each line into two:
  • <translated title> by <transliterated author name>
  • Translation of: <canonical title of the story> by <canonical author name>
Following the same logic, we could display http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?671037 along the lines of:
  • <story name> by <pseudonym>
  • Alternate name of <canonical author name>
We'll have to consider a variety of scenarios, but it's a start. I'll do some more digging and post my findings on the Community Portal. Thanks! Ahasuerus 17:32, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

(This is the story that led me down this rabbit hole. It was cited on File770's review of Hugo-eligible short story editors for 2018, and listed Anya under her birth name instead of her actual name.) The interview with Anya for that issue is even worse, since it doesn't even note that Anya is the name it was published under--despite the fact that the interview title is "Shimmer Interviews: Anya Johanna DeNiro" ISFDB describes it as an interview of Alan DeNiro.

For interviews, we currently capture the name of the interviewer as it appears in the publication (and set up a variant/pseudonym if needed), but we always use the canonical name of the interviewee -- see Help:Screen:NewPub#Interviews, which says "The canonical name of the person being interviewed, whether or not it matches the form(s) of the name used in the interview." This is due to the fact that there is no software support for pseudonymous interviewees. It's an unfortunate software limitations. Ahasuerus 13:47, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Stewartcbaker 12:31, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Canonical names -- software changes

A quick update re: Rules_and_standards_discussions#Canonical_names_for_transgender_authors. As per [As per this announcement, the term "pseudonym" has been changed to "alternate name" throughout. Thanks for raising this issue! Ahasuerus 18:12, 17 October 2018 (EDT)

Reprints with new titles

When a story/novel is reprinted with a new name, we show that with a variant. Go to the new title and look at the left menu and find "Make This Title a Variant". Then in Option 1, use the ID of the original story. Done now. Thanks for finding this one! Annie 05:00, 13 October 2020 (EDT)

Perfect, thanks for fixing that for me! I am the author, so it was an easy one to find. ;) Stewartcbaker

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