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Expanded archive listing

"Publications with Invalid Prices"

The cleanup report "Publications with Invalid Prices" has been enhanced to include prices without a currency symbol. Ahasuerus 16:26, 1 July 2017 (EDT)

Proposal: modifying capitalization help

See discussion at R&S. --Vasha 11:05, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

OCLC URLs in Notes

As we discussed a few weeks ago, I have been trying to create a script to move OCLC numbers from publications notes to the external ID field. Unfortunately, I have found a number of odd permutations which make it hard to perform an automatic conversion. For example, consider this 1985 publication. The two lines that contain OCLC URLs are followed by additional lines related to the referenced OCLC records. The way my script is currently written, it would move the OCLC numbers to the External ID field and delete them from the Note field, which would create a mess. There are other patterns that make it difficult to automate the process without jeopardizing the integrity of the data.

On the plus side, our indefatigable editors have manually migrated close to 10,000 OCLC numbers to the new field over the last month+. At the rate we are going, the conversion process may be done by early 2018. Ahasuerus 16:53, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

If OCLC, or WorldCat (in all kinds of combinations of small and capital letters) are mentioned anywhere in the note except on the OCLC line itself, then it should not be touched, I agree. But we still have a lot of them where it is only on a line on its own, never referenced outside of the line... I know that text analysis of the full field to check if it is free to lift is time consuming but that will move a lot of OCLC numbers automatically Annie 18:29, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

Well, let's consider the publication that I linked above. I will copy and paste the relevant section of the Note field to make it easier:

• OCLC: <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/221429563">221429563</a>
• -- ISBN 057113677X 0571136753
• -- 24 cm (62 pp)
• OCLC: <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/221429563">221429563</a>
• -- ISBN 057113677X -- 20 cm (62 pp)

How would the parsing logic know not to touch these 2 OCLC numbers even though there are no other references to OCLC or WorldCat next to them? A human would immediately realize that the lines that follow are related, but it's really hard for a computer program to make that type of determination. Ahasuerus 21:40, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

2017-10-11 update: The example above is no longer valid since the Note field has been changed. Ahasuerus 15:21, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

This record have a third OCLC and the word WorldCat under these two - which will mean "nope, human needed". And these 2 messages are faulty anyway - one of them is a bit wrong (they are the same number, different text). I can see the problem though - single OCLC but text on the next line for it.

Here is a new idea - OCLC as a last line on the notes? Annie 22:00, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

That's a good point. There are at least 14,661 notes with an OCLC link as the last line (except for the optional "/ul".) I'll see if I can take advantage of that. Ahasuerus 22:17, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

There are also lots of records where the last 2 lines are: OCLC link; then LCCN link. Those should also be easy to recognize and move. Chavey 02:27, 3 July 2017 (EDT)

It looks like any "pure OCLC link" line followed by a line that starts with a recognized pattern should be doable. Ahasuerus 10:19, 3 July 2017 (EDT)

... and then I find a publication note where the last line consists of an OCLC link and the next-to-last line reads 'OCLC <.....> Table of contents from <carriage return>". Sigh... Ahasuerus 14:15, 3 July 2017 (EDT)

(outcome) I have pretty much abandoned my attempts to convert OCLC links automatically, at least for now. There were just too many permutations and gotchas. Ahasuerus 15:21, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

Titles without Pubs report

Can we have this extended to include essays(for now) so we can start clearing those out of the DB? The ones that need to stay for one reason or another will need to get notes to explain so and ignored but there are a lot that need just old fashioned deleting. Thanks! Annie 18:33, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

Done. The data will become available tomorrow morning. Ahasuerus 21:51, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

Cleaned up, it was mostly essays by a few authors that seemed to have had a special dispense (granted by who, I don't know) like Shirley Jackson and Arlan Andrews (and also some quite unknown authors that probably used our system to beef up their bibliography), some leftovers from varianting, some purely electronic texts, some mismatched types (ESSAY for SHORTFICTION), some wrongly split NONFICTION books and some duplicates (under or not slightly different names). We can now try to clean the POEMs. Hauck 03:31, 3 July 2017 (EDT)

Great! POEMs will become available tomorrow morning. Ahasuerus 10:11, 3 July 2017 (EDT)

Done, note a concentration on very few authors (Hardy -see below-, Payack -a special dispense like Hardy?-, Baudelaire -problem with pseudonyming-, Poe -some working or "generic" titles or variants-) and a few leftovers. Ready to go to the next level (SHORTFICTION), perhaps in small batches as I won't try to guess the numbers involved. Hauck 03:58, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Excellent! Actually, SHORTFICTION isn't too bad, only 1,300 records. I have tweaked the report and they will pop up tomorrow morning. Ahasuerus 13:54, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

A lot of the pub-less stories got nuked when I was assigning languages - because they were not in a publication, they did not get automatic language through any of the usual means so they got in the manual inspection and got deleted there. Thus the much lower number that one would expect (same happened with the poems and essays by the way).Annie 16:13, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

BNF cleanup report tweaked

The cleanup report "Publications with direct BNF links in Notes" has been tweaked to ignore links to Gallica and other non-catalogue parts of the BNF Web site. Ahasuerus 16:13, 3 July 2017 (EDT)

K. S. Hardy pub-less poems question

A huge amount of the poems in K. S. Hardy's account a pub-less (example: this one). What is our policy on that - do we allow them (if they were in printed books or ebooks and not solely online)? I can see that going both ways - if someone bothers to add the non-genre magazines/newspapers they were in, they are eligible (poems are fiction after all and we allow fiction from non-genre sources) but without the magazines, it looks weird. So what do we want to do:

• Delete the lot of them
• Add Magazine entries for the magazines/newspapers that contained them and add them as the only content
• Leave them as they are. (my least preferred but if that is what we want to do, then I am fine with it).

Thanks for any opinions. PS: There are couple more poets like that (and I suspect we will find a few short fiction writers like that as well). Annie 15:40, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

If someone had added it and did not bother to add a note where they appeared, they are getting deleted - if someone cares enough, they need to write notes. But someone did here - thus the question. Annie 15:52, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

IIRC they were added by the author (or its representative, here). I'm going to delete them as our policy (or so it seems to me) was to add non-eligible (either because of their genre or their place of publication) texts at author's level and not as "proper" titles. For example, even if I've written a few essays about SF in non-genre publications, I won't try to include them in the db. I'm also wary of a recent tendency of "aspiring" poets (this is strictly without sarcasm) to massively enter their works in the db (note the length of this page.Hauck 02:39, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Essays are clear. But if we have a short story in Nature (a non-genre magazine), we catalog these. As we will do any SF story in any non-genre magazine of any type. So I was wondering what we are doing for poems. I have no issue with deleting the lot of them. Annie 02:50, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Yes, but in the case of Nature there is (in theory) a publication record that goes with the text, it's not the case here IMHO either because the poems are not spec-fic or the publication itself is not eligible. To go beyond this case, the underlying question is "Are POEMs to be treated like SHORTFICTIONs?". This could easily make a few pages at R&S. (For the record, I'd say "no" only on practical grounds as I fear that there are a looooooooot of poems in looooot of "obscure" supports waiting to be entered). Hauck 02:57, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Another point is that I found the practice of some "self-centered" contributors to enter only their own texts (either as a stub as in this case or as the sole content of the publication like here as I've seen numerous times) instead of taking the time to enter the whole publication quite contrary to our spirit and aims. In Hardy's case, it's quite interesting as some titles were entered as stubs and were (before I deleted them) given as being published in this magazine or that one, BUT the contributor simply didn't take the pain to add the issue. This is just lazyness or self-publicity but it's not acceptable bibliographic work. Hauck 03:02, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Maybe they did not know that they should because a boatload of those were accepted like that. But then - people will be people, there will always be people with different agenda in a community project... When I end up with one of those incomplete ones, I just edit and add the rest if I can find it. Maybe that will show a new contributor what is the expected behavior. And even if it does not, we do not have a half-way entered publication.

PS: Agree on poems - unless if they are in a genre publication, they are out in my book. Annie 03:31, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Add AWards From the SFPA

The Science Fiction and Fantasy Poetry association holds an annual contest as well as offering yearly awards for speculative poetry published the previous year: the Rhysling Awards for individual poems, the Dwarf Stars Award for short-short poems, and the Elgin Awards for genre poetry books and chapbooks.

I would like to have the SFPA award, Dwarf Stars and Elgin added to the Awards list —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Akua (talk • contribs) . on 23:05, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

The Dwarf Stars Award and the Elgin Awards look solid and I would have no problem adding them. However, I am not sure what "the SFPA award" means in this context. We already support the Rhysling Award and I am unaware of any other SFPA-administered awarwds. Could you please clarify? Ahasuerus 20:32, 6 July 2017 (EDT)

The SFPA holds an annual contest for sf/f poetry. "The 2017 SFPA speculative poetry contest is open to all poets, including non-SFPA-members. Prizes will be awarded for best poem in 3 categories: Dwarf (poems 1–10 lines [prose poems 0–100 words]); Short (11–49 lines [prose poems 101–499 words]); Long (50 lines and more [prose 500 words and up]). Line count does not include title or stanza breaks. All sub-genres of speculative poetry allowed in any form. Entries will be read blind"Akua 22:10, 6 July 2017 (EDT)Akua

OK, I have added new award types for Dwarf Stars Award and Elgin Award.

As far as the "SFPA Poetry Contest" goes, I am not sure it counts as an award in the regular sense of the word. Its Web page says that it "is intended to raise funds for SFPA, as well as to draw more attention to speculative poets and reward writers of good speculative poems". All poems must be unpublished and and it costs $2 to enter a poem. Ahasuerus 15:21, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

Stephen Crane and the supernatural

On this page, a scholar answers a question about which of Stephen Crane's stories have supernatural elements by listing just three, one of which he considers to have merely "overtones of the supernatural." Do you think this is sufficient evidence to remove Crane's other stories from the database? --Vasha 18:46, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Ashley and Contento's The Supernatural Index lists 10 stories. I wouldn't recommend deleting any of those. --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 21:08, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

The thing is, Ashley & Contento tend to indiscriminately list the complete contents of a book of "Tales of Terror and the Supernatural" -- because they can't read everything, that's fair enough. I would recommend in that case adding a synopsis and a nongenre mark and a note saying that Ashley & Contento list it even though it's not supernatural. Vasha 21:24, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

If someone reads them and write synopsis for each (or find some) and determines that they are non-genre, a flag and an explanation will be a good idea. I would say that without a reading, it is just one source against another - we need a real human :) Deleting them will cause issues downstream - someone somewhere will decide to add them again. So staying in sync with Ashley & Contento plus notes is probably the best way to go. Annie 21:48, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Sure, that's fine. Vasha 22:20, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Stephen Crane wrote a number of parodies of ghost stories in which an apparently supernatural phenomenon turns out to be something ridiculously mundane -- for example "A Ghoul's Accountant" and "The Black Dog." I believe these should be marked non-genre, right? --Vasha 21:28, 6 July 2017 (EDT)

Linking to Smashwords images

Please note that we can now link to Smashwords images. The syntax is similar to what we do for SFE3-hosted images -- see Template:Image Host Sites for details. Ahasuerus 18:42, 7 July 2017 (EDT)

Cool. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:50, 7 July 2017 (EDT)

The Whole Science Fiction Data Base 8 question

Hello, I've seen a reference to this: 'The Whole Science Fiction Data Base 8' stating that it provides more detail about a specific book (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?257168). Can anyone please tell me what this 'Data Base 8' is and how to access it?

Thanks in advance!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Voodoomailman (talk • contribs) .

Answered the duplicate post in the Help Desk. --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 22:42, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

LCCN double formats, PV'd publications and the current cleanup project

LCCN have two valid formats: year-number and year(some number of zeroes)number. Both are valid, both can be used for search and linking. In the current LCCN cleanup project, my understanding is that we are moving "as is" - if the editors preferred the 91-38127 format to be visible, this is what we put in the new External ID field - we are not trying to standardize at all (by using the 91038127 format always in the External ID and leaving the 91-38127 in the notes); if they preferred 91038127, that is what we are putting in the field. Especially on PV'd publications. There are a few cases really:

• Link is pointing to 91038127, the visible part is 91-38127. The new field should be 91-38127 (link ends up in the same place; the visual part is preserved).
• No link at all, just a string 91-38127, same as the above (actually in this case, I would say that using the 91038127 format is unreasonable.
• If the visible part is already 91038127, we follow the same principle.

Leaving the link in the notes clutters them - if it is already moved down, why keep the note at all unless if it is tied to more details and needs to stay for clarification? Any opinions on that? Annie 18:58, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

I'm all for removing the note. A difference between LCCNs and the other external identifiers is that LCCNs are usually printed in the books. As an editor/verifier, I'd prefer to have the number formatted as it appears in the book. Assuming editors are likely to have entered them that way, preserving any existing visual formatting appeals to me. --MartyD 21:16, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

Me too (tm) Ahasuerus 21:56, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

There are cases (e.g. The Clocks of Iraz) where a LCCN number is quoted in a book that has no bearing to the present records of the Library of Congress, thus offering no valid link upon entering. I think all links should be checked, and the actual number must be used for linking, as was the case with the old method of entering LCCN numbers in the notes.--Dirk P Broer 21:33, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

We are not talking about the cases where there is a difference between the printed value and the actual one in more than format. Yes, all links need checking - and if it is plainly wrong, the note should explain the situation. But if the LCCN is printed as 62-123, I think this is what needs to be in the External Identifier field - as long as it is the valid one. I strongly disagree that we should enforce 91038127 in the link in such cases - this will make it appear as the value as well as the link now and that is the difference from those old links.

We may have an alternative option - have the external indentifier link be changed when creating the link - doing the conversion on our side (so it emulates the current most prevalent links). But this will be an overkill - LOC already does that. Annie 21:41, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

Similar series titles

This series has a notice at the top that another series has the same name. However, their names are not the same. In fact, the second series is a subseries of the first. Is there a way to suppress these notices on specific series? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 13:39, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

I submitted a series name change for the second one that may fix this. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 13:43, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Yep - instead of brackets (), use another separator in the series name. They have the notice as the same because the brackets syntax is considered disambiguation. The change helped (different names outside of any brackets). All good nowAnnie 13:46, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Cool. Any way to fix the sorting in the main series? It currently has them listed 2, 1, 3, 4 instead of 1, 2, 3, 4. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:40, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

The problem is that there are two different elements here - the books directly into the series (2) and the subseries entries (the rest). They sort separately and I am not aware of any way to sort them together - it sorts first the books into the series, then the subseries. So... one option is to put the single one that is in position 2 now into its own "main" series and put that main series as #2. Or you can wait to see if someone else has a better idea. Annie 16:49, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Guess we should wait for Ahasuerus to wander by. :) ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:08, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Hmm...found an art book for the series, so I submitted that and changed the series to レア・ガルフォース to match the art book. That should fix it once approved and the new series is placed as #2 in the main series. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:17, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Approved everything you had in the queue - and added the numbering (I think). let me know if this is what we were trying to achieve :) :) Annie 18:24, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Looks good. Thanks. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:28, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Here's a fun one to sort

Somehow, things got mixed up with this volume:

Volume one should have the following contents:

• 銀河無責任時代 (novel)
• 無責任艦長タイラー (novel)
• ワングの逆襲 (novel)

Instead, the first entry is for this omnibus (which isn't actually a real book). I'm not sure how it happened, and I'm not sure how to fix it since there's an omnibus within an omnibus. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:42, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Use 'Remove Titles From This Pub' and remove the 'bad' omnibus . Once approved, you can delete the omnibus record (since it doesn't seem to be a valid publication) and import the missing novel's title record into the 'good' omnibus. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:50, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Submitted ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:05, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

That's the wrong one -- you want to kick out the 銀河無責任時代 omnibus, not the one that is the same name as the publication :) Annie 19:07, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Fixed. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:11, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

here is your stray title. Do you want to delete it? Seems like that series is missing its #1 now? Annie 19:13, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Submitted the deletion and the addition of the stray title (I knew about it, since that's how I noticed something weird was up). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:14, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Yeah, you were moving faster than I was typing above :) All looks good now I think? Annie 19:15, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Almost. I submitted a sort order fix, too, for both in the series. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:16, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Got them less than a minute after you sent them - probably while you were typing. :) Now all should look fine. Annie 19:25, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Thanks for helping to sort it out. :) ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:52, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

I remember the anime, but I had no idea that the (very) irresponsible Captain Tylor was so popular! Ahasuerus 20:25, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

And there's more, too. I still have 4 more novel series to add to the pile. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:47, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Also, I wasn't aware there were this many. I knew the anime was based on some novels, but I'd never looked into it before. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 14:52, 13 July 2017 (EDT)

You never know what you may find once you start digging. Back when I started working on the database, I had no idea that so many Kenneth Bulmer books were only available in German (at the time.) Ahasuerus 16:00, 13 July 2017 (EDT)

Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

Based on the following links ( WorldCat, LOC, Locus) and other references, the correct canonical title for this title should be "Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell". The author's intent based on interviews is to use the punctuation of the time, and so the title should not include a period after 'Mr'. I can correct the publication entries for which I am PV, and suggest modifications to other PVers, but I think we should correct the Title Name as well. What's the recommended procedure for this?

WorldCat LOC Locus

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taweiss (talk • contribs) . 19:46, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Changed. Stonecreek 23:42, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

Nominating user Nihonjoe for moderator

See Moderator Qualifications#Becoming a moderator for the nomination process.

I would like to nominate user Nihonjoe (talk • contribs) for moderator. He has been with us for a number of years now, mainly working on Japanese entries and the Wiki side of the database. His talkpage shows excelent communication skills, and hardly any problems with his submissions. I think he meets the Moderator Qualifications and he has accepted the nomination. His language skills are an enormous asset.

Support

1. Support, as nominator. --Willem 02:10, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
2. Support, sorry to be late to the party, and discussion below notwithstanding. I don't share those concerns. I've found him to be a good communicator and his submissions and understanding of ISFDB policies and procedures to be solid. I also think beefing up the moderator corps' Asian language capabilities would be an added benefit. --MartyD 21:11, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
3. Support, Nihonjoe is careful and all of his submissions that I have moderated have been uniformly good.Rkihara 23:06, 21 July 2017 (EDT)
4. Support, with a small note - I had never seen him submitting an English language item (except when it was needed for a variant for a Japanese one or something like that.) Which does not disqualify him (and I had not been around long enough to know the complete history) but the conventions around capitalization, names normalizations, same-named publishers and so on can be a bit tricky (a lot trickier than they are in any of the other languages) and need a lot of attention when moderating. But the easiest way to learn those is either to edit a lot in that language or start helping people do them properly - and the first one is unrealistic for someone whose interests are in other languages. So when/if he becomes a moderator, I hope he will be careful around English-language submissions. :) Annie 13:06, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
5. Support, I'm about 65/35 split [positive/neutral] and only because I have not moderated enough submissions for Nihonjoe. I think most were Variants, so the original submissions were already done [while I'm comfortable with french, German, Spanish or Italian I have no experience with cyrillic or pictographic languages]. But that's my lack, not his. I went through past pages of commentary and I will say there is a definite involvement at all levels. That's important. I don't feel the 'lack' of submissions is crucial [I certainly had far fewer when I became a Moderator, but the database was much simpler then - I actually knew what I didn't know]. What one submits also doesn't need to cover everything [I've never done one involving an Award - so maybe both my and Willem's flags should be lowered to half-mast]. I agree with Marty that more language coverage is a plus at the Mod level. And I haven't seen where Nihonjoe has been the slightest bit reluctant to ask if there's something he's unsure of. That's how I learned. --~ Bill, Bluesman 15:29, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
6. Support, despite a moderate amount of submissions, what I moderated was usually the result of serious, careful work. It being often Asian-centered is no problem, on the contrary : competence in this field seems to be an asset for this db. Linguist 08:16, 23 July 2017 (EDT).

Oppose

1. Oppose Not for now, as Nihonjoe has (IMHO of course) not enough contributions (7.000). In the present state of the db, 10.000 contributions is a bare minimum (15.000 being the correct number to have learned most of the ropes), the last two accepted moderators were above the 20.000 mark. There is also, at this time, no shortage of moderators. Hauck 02:18, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

Comments/ Neutral

1. Neutral. Since I was asked to comment, I will post this versus not responding. I would prefer that someone becoming a moderator be familiar enough with the tools to handle this situation (discussion two topics above). However, I don't oppose the nomination. Nihonjoe's work has been good & I highly doubt he will cause any damage. If others are fine with him picking the rest up 'on the job', I'm comfortable that he will remain conscientious and so don't have an objection. -- JLaTondre (talk) 21:03, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

• Regarding Hauck's comment, there are a couple of moderators who have fewer contributions than me per the list: Albinoflea (~2800), Tpi (~4000). Another has just a few more than me: Kpulliam (~8500). So these seemingly-arbitrary "bare minimum" or "correct number" of contributions seems to be just that: arbitrary. As for the other argument (no shortage), there is no mention anywhere that I can find of a cap on the number of them (or anything similar). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 12:06, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

What don't you understand in the acronym IMHO? Of course it's arbitrary, it's my opinion. As for Albinoflea, I've exactly had the same position (not enough contributions), as for tpi he's with us since 2008 and was made moderator more than seven years ago in different times. On the relationship level, this immediate outburst just confirms my opinion that you're not ready for the job. Hauck 12:50, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

I apologize if you feel my comments were an "outburst", but I wasn't aware I wasn't allowed to make comments. If that's the case, I'll certainly refrain. I understand the IMHO acronym, too, as I've been online since the glory days of IRC way back in 1990. I'm fine if you don't think I'm ready for the job. I was merely pointing out that the numbers you gave seemed arbitrary (to me, even though I didn't use "IMHO" when I made the comment). You are certainly welcome to have your own opinion about anything, and I wasn't trying to imply that you couldn't. Apologies if it sounded that way. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 14:46, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

A little bit of background. Back when ISFDB 2.0 was open for alpha testing in 2006, all testers were automatically made moderators because we were still testing the software. Once the beta phase started in December 2006, many original testers slowly became inactive. Eventually their moderator flags were removed. Some even asked to have them removed because they felt they were no longer on top of things.

Over the following few years a more formal process -- formal requirements, nominations, voting, etc -- was developed. We also added a "demoderatorization" policy for inactive moderators.

As far as the number of contributions goes, I think it's a useful gauge, although necessarily a rough one. As the size and complexity of the database grows, moderators need to be aware of more and more areas which didn't exist in 2006: awards, publication series, external IDs, cloning, cleanup reports, links to third party web pages, various title flags, languages, chapboooks, user preferences, etc. It's possible for an active editor to be very familiar with one part of the database editing process and be a rookie in other areas.

When reviewing the edits made by a potential moderator, I find it useful to look not only at the total number of edits, but also at the breakdown by submission type, which can be found here. In this case, I see that Nihonjoe has created 432 New Award submissions, which suggests that he is probably familiar with awards. Similarly, he has created 318 Title Merge submissions and 765 Make Variant Title submissions. On the other hand, he has created fewer than 10 Title Unmerge submissions, a tricky area.

One thing that we have found useful in the past is identifying the areas which a prospective moderator hasn't been exposed to and having a more experienced moderator work with him to make sure that he or she becomes familiar with them before we turn the moderator flag on. Perhaps it's something that we could consider in this case. Ahasuerus 13:54, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

I'm sure there are far more areas where I haven't done much, too. I don't think a moderator has to be intimately familiar with every area before becoming one, but rather willing to learn and willing to ask questions if they don't know what should be done in a given area. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 14:46, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

True, but there are times when, as the saying goes, "we don't know what we don't know". There have been times when I thought that I knew what the policy was and made edits based on my understanding only to find out later that my understanding was incorrect or out of date. On the other hand, as the system grows, it becomes harder to keep track of all of our features and policies; if we required perfection, we would be left with no moderators. Kind of a tricky balance... Ahasuerus 14:57, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

However, if that's the general consensus, I'm happy to live with it. I wasn't looking to be made one, but Willem said he thought I could do the job, so I indicated that I was fine if he wanted to nominate me. Whatever the decision here, I plan to continue contributing as I can (which is all I've ever done). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 14:46, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

I find that this too is a matter of balance. On the one hand, we obviously do not want new editors to be able to approve their own edits -- even the most well-meaning newbie is liable to make mistakes early on. On the other hand, having moderators approve every trivial change made by a veteran editor is not a very good way to spend out limited resources either: it makes both the veteran editor and the approving moderators less productive. Making qualified editors moderators is in everyone's interests, we just need to make sure that they have been properly "seasoned" :-) Ahasuerus 15:09, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

If people want to work with me in specific areas in which they think I need more experience, I'm open to it. I tend to just work on whatever interests me (though I do have a very large list of projects which seems to never get smaller). So, feel free to pass the salt and pepper and make sure I'm seasoned. ;) ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:13, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

I think this discussion is going nowhere. Sorry to put you through this Nihonjoe. Perhaps my moderator flag should be removed because I don't do anything in the awards section? --Willem 15:22, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

No worries. I've been through far worse in similar discussions. This one barely registers. I'm fine it continuing if people want to continue it. Either way. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:03, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

Request for additional comments

It's been 5 days since the nomination. Normally (and as per the standard process), it would be enough to determine if we have consensus. However, only 4 votes have been cast so far: 3 in favor and 1 against. I worked with Nihonjoe last year, when he was learning the ropes, but I have processed only 14 of his submissions in 2017, so I hesitate to cast a vote.

I have compiled a list of moderators who have approved more than 50 of Nihonjoe's submissions in 2017 and who haven't voted. I will ask them to chime in based on their experience. Unfortunately, one of them is on vacation. Ahasuerus 11:02, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

Outcome

The final tally is 6 in favor, 1 opposed and 1 neutral, so I will go ahead and set the moderator flag on Nihonjoe's account. Based on the comments about his limited exposure to non-Asian publications, I will encourage Nihonjoe to concentrate on self-approvals while he gets more experience in other areas. Ahasuerus 16:07, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

I'll keep Hauck's comments in mind. As for non-Asian contributions, I've submitted quite a few. More recently, I've been focusing on a few long Japanese series (one of the series had around 160 volumes in it!), so most of my recent contributions have been related to those. Thanks to everyone who participated. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:56, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

Congratulations from me also... don't be afraid to ask questions, and the beers are in the fridge. :) PeteYoung 06:24, 25 July 2017 (EDT)

As long as some of them are root beers since I don't drink. :) ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 10:48, 25 July 2017 (EDT)

Content field for omnibus variants

The way we variant ombinuses is that we do not variant if the content is not exactly the same. At the same time, if you want to see the content of a variant, you need to have it added on the variant itself. Is there a reason why this field is not treated as the Series and SeriesNum fields and to be greyed out on the variant and inherited from the parent? Annie 18:10, 19 July 2017 (EDT)

Let me think about it... How about this scenario: the parent is [/1,2] while the variant is [/1,2+ss]? Is it a legitimate parent-variant pair or should their VT link be broken? Ahasuerus 20:56, 19 July 2017 (EDT)

Well, I do not like to variant different content - if it is a variant, it should be the same content (abridged, translated and whatsnot make a variant, split volumes (these I still do not like but oh well); different fiction elements altogether make new title). Otherwise where do we draw the line? At 1 story, 2 stories? 1 novel? If we take that wiggling to the extreme, we should just variant all omnibuses that contain the same 2 novels - after all the fact that one of them have 1 more novel and the other 2 more novellas and the third 4 more novellas is ignored if we say that 1-2 and 1-2+ss is the same. Or if we decide we will accept that, we need to draw the line somewhere firmly (and to keep in mind that if 1-2+ss is varianted under 1-2 but that will also mean that 1-2+2ss needs to go under 1-2+ss which will mean under 1-2 as well.

Of course if the community disagrees, I will just shut up and go do the variants the way we agree we should (and I had never seen your hypothetical situation so never thought on that - I was just cleaning series from variants and saw it on the omnibus and decided to ask. Annie 21:11, 19 July 2017 (EDT)

I only variant those with the exact same content. Otherwise, it's a different publication. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:08, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

I do this on a case by case basis (that is a really precise definition!). When the "bulk" is kept, especially in translation, I make the variant, for example in Ahasuerus' scenario for a translated work, I'd make the variant. As for the content of the field proper, I rarely use it as some title series are quite fluid and what is true at one moment may not be so in the future. Hauck 02:09, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Award year listings not working for Gemmell Award

Examples: 2016, 2015, 2010. If you view them by category, it works fine: Legend, Morningstar, Ravenheart. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:54, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

It is the dates - someone had added them as 2010-06-00 (for example - the one I looked at) and not as 2010-00-00. I fixed one so now one shows under 2010. I will wait for Ahasuerus to see this and confirm before I fix the rest. Annie 16:11, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Just looked at the help page: "Enter the award year using the YYYY or the YYYY-00-00 format" :) So at least the help page is correct. Maybe we need a check added to make sure that the page does not allow the month and date to be added. Annie 16:14, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Probably easiest would be to have it be a YYYY-only field and add the "-00-00" on the back end if needed to make the database happy. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:45, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

It will do it if you just add 2017 :) The field accepts two formats: YYYY and YYYY-00-00 and stays valid. Because it is called year, I guess the assumption is that people will just add the year so no additional checks were done. I think the validation is the same as a date field but the help page for them is different. Annie 16:48, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

PS: That is why I said that I want to wait for Ahasuerus to chime in :) Annie 16:50, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Yup. Another idea: just have the database strip out "-MM-DD" for the awards and replace them with "-00-00" when submitted. Might be quicker than changing the form and such. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:20, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Thanks for identifying the problem! I am kind of under the weather at the moment, but I will take a closer look as soon as I get better. Ahasuerus 20:33, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Get better! This can wait. Annie 20:41, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Yup, definitely hope you feel better soon. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:42, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

Thanks, folks, I am feeling better now. Not at 100% yet, but "mostly functional" (or at least that's what Fixer tells me.)

I have changed the affected Web page to use the award year only, so values like 2010-06-00 should no longer be a problem. While I was at it, I fixed a couple of other bugs. They only affected processing improperly formed award URLs, so fixing them should have no impact on most users. Please let me know if you run into any issues. Ahasuerus 15:44, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

So what is the policy now - dates or year only? If we officially allow dates, we need the help page changed. I know that it will work for dates now but that does not make it correct according to the current rules - thus me asking. Annie 15:50, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

I guess the first question that we need to answer is whether we plan to support awards that are not given annually. For example, Writers and Illustrators of the Future gives its awards quarterly. It's really a contest for amateur writers rather than an award:

• "Entries may not have been previously published in professional media", "The Contest is open only to those who have not professionally published a novel or short novel, or more than one novelette, or more than three short stories...", etc.

but there may be other awards that are given more than once a year. If we were to decide to add them, we would need to redesign our software because it currently assumes that all awards are annual. (Gaps are allowed, of course.)

For now, I think we should keep the current policy, i.e. "YYYY or YYYY-00-00", for award dates. Once we clean up the data (there are 90 award records with months), I can add another layer of validation to prevent editors from entering YYYY-MM-00 and YYYY-MM-DD values. Ahasuerus 16:10, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

I agree. :) I've corrected any that I was approving last few days. Can you get a list of the affected ones so we can fix them? Annie 16:25, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

I have coded and deployed a cleanup report to find them. The data will become available tomorrow morning. I'll go ahead and create an FR to add that extra layer of validation that we discussed earlier. Ahasuerus 17:53, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

There is another example of 2 sets of awards in one year with the 2010 Grand Prix de l'Imaginaire. My assumption is that because their eligibility year was drifting, they awarded a second set of awards in 2010 to harmonize the eligibility year with the calendar year. I originally tried adding those with different months, but quickly discovered the problem seen with the Gemmells. I ended up adding both sets under 2010 with notes on the award record explaining which set it belonged to. I also added an explanation on the award type record. It might be a nice idea to have a note field for the award year where these sorts of things could be explained closer to where they appear. We could also note eligibility periods and time and place of the award ceremony. Just an idea. --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 18:52, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

An interesting example; thanks. I agree that there would be value to adding an "award year note". Unfortunately, our current database layout doesn't lend itself to this addition. Notes are associated with records. At this time the only awards-related records are "awards", "award types" and "award categories". We would need to create a new record type -- something like "award year" or "award ceremony" -- in order to add notes.

After sleeping on it, I think it may be a viable idea. We already need to create an award type and an award category before we enter an award. If we were to add a new record type for "award years/ceremonies", it would be similar to award categories and would be available as a drop-down list on New/Edit Award pages. You would have to define an "award year" before you could enter any awards for it and there would be a note explaining where and when the awards were announced and/or presented. This functionality would also allow us to support non-annual awards like "2015 3rd quarter". Food for thought... Ahasuerus 09:28, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

(unindent) I have created FR 1086 to document what has been discussed here. It's not a high priority; I expect that we will discuss it when it's time to talk about Roadmap 2018 . Ahasuerus 12:45, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

Sounds good. Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 13:29, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

"Note to Moderator" field name change

Hello, I find Annie's idea to use the "Note to Moderator" field to "notify" PVs really great. I'm starting to use it intensively as does Annie (of course) and Bill. This may be the long-searched-for way to simplify our notification procedures as this field is accessible anytime in the "My Changed Primary Verifications" link. Of course this way of doing things should be just used for "simple" updates or additions (The process for more problematic cases should stay as it is via the Talk Pages). To make things even clearer, perhaps should the field be renamed along the lines of "Note to Moderator / Notification to PVs" (or something else). Any thoughts on the matter? Hauck 02:56, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

One of the issues is that if there is more than one update in a day or since the last time you opened your Changed verifications, the previous notes get lost - each pub is on the list just once (I believe so anyway - maybe adding all updates to the list there is the way to go?). They are in the submission itself but not in the quick link under "Changed verifications" so finding them is not that easy). When I know I am multi-editing (typos usually), I make sure I repeat both but if I do not know about the change (or it was long enough ago to forget), the lost ones are getting lost. And yes - anything that is not moving fields around, format issues and so on should still be following the old process.

Nope, multiple edits show up on the list, and each change is different. I can't say if Mod notes stay as the ones I just checked on my list didn't have any. --~ Bill, Bluesman 15:42, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

Another concern is that these are supposed to be just for the moderators (so people may add personal information there) - even though they were never really hidden. A rename of the field just for the publications (how often do we get personal information on changed publications? Authors edits - maybe, but on publications, not that much. Plus if we do see one, a rejection WILL keep it safe (I am pretty sure that only moderators and the editor that submitted the original have access to rejected submissions or at least it is not that easy to find them) and the moderator can reapply the change and add a proper note) Annie 03:26, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

So split in two fields? Hauck 03:32, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

Also an option :) But we have editors that put notes to the moderators into the Notes or Synopsis fields (and notes for the edition into the moderators notes) :) So technically, no matter what is done, we will have things that are just in the wrong place anyway. And I am really not that concerned about these on publications - most updates on verified publications won't have personal data. It's just that we tell people this field is safe - so we need changes in that. As long as people know that the field is visible, we should be fine with one field I think.

But I do agree, it is very useful for cleanup operations (and cuts down on the "what did she change now?" questions I hope) which is where I use it mostly (bigger changes get the note AND a post on the Talk page). As long as the multiple edits issue can be resolved, that may be a very effective tool indeed (not that there will be a lot of multiple edits in the same publications very often but corner cases tend to snarl designs and it is a valid case). :) Annie 03:47, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

Extremely useful, for all minor changes. I've actually re-submitted sometimes because I forgot to add a note [by rejecting the non-note version only one shows up on the other PVs page[s] ]. If we make it more visible/renamed/whatever more people will use it. --~ Bill, Bluesman 15:42, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

I seem to have missed the original suggestion / discussion. Searching on "Note to Moderator" turned up nothing and I'm not looking through everything Annie has submitted. Any chance of a link? Thanks. Doug H 11:46, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

I think that the seed of the idea is here. Hauck 12:43, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

There was never a discussion per se. I used to use the moderator notes a lot before I was a moderator to remind myself what I did or what else needs to still be done or to show the moderators what I am changing for a small change (it is very annoying to try to figure out the change in a 6 lines of notes when visually you cannot spot it:) ). Then I realized that I can see the moderator note when I click on the changed verification or in an item in Recent Edits (before I was a moderator) so figured that it won't hurt to add there a summary of what I am changing during my cleanup -- too small to notify (moving lccn or adding a missing tag or changing to a template or adding a transliteration or changing a capital/small letter in a story - that kind of thing). So that is the backstory - a side unintended effect of a feature basically that is very useful on its own. Annie 12:53, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

(unindent) It looks like there are three overlapping issues here:

• Add a new field to allow entering "Change Summaries". We may want to add this field to all types of submissions, not just EditPubs, since the functionality can be useful in a variety of cases.
• "Create a history of changes to primary-verified publications by storing a snapshot of the way each verified pub looked like right before it was changed" as per Roadmap 2017. Unlike the proposed "Change Summary" field, the data will be saved automatically at the time the submission is approved. Even if the submitter doesn't enter anything in the "Change Summary" field, the data will be captured. The display software will be able to show two versions of the record side by side with differences highlighted.
• Ensure the privacy of the "Note to Moderator" field since it can contain private information like e-mail addresses.

If this functionality is deemed higher priority than other outstanding items listed on the Roadmap 2017 page, I can reshuffle the development queue accordingly. Ahasuerus 16:28, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

I do not think that the first two are opposites - if you just change a letter somewhere in the notes (or add a tag), finding it even when you have both versions takes a lot of time and effort. So having a change summary in that case is very useful. Annie 14:13, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

I agree that they are complementary. Changing the software to highlight the differences will help, but a Change Summary field can do a lot more to explain the reasons for the change. Ahasuerus 16:23, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

Something else to think about: Changes in contained titles. We have the publications changes but if something is changed on the titles level (being it the title itself or content), there is no notification. And these are the ones that can really mess things up -- changing a story to a novella when you know it is not true or merging the translations of two stories when they need to stay separate. Any plans to start adding those to the changed primary verifications as well (and/or make them more available)? Annie 16:39, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

As I recall, I briefly considered the issue of EditTitle submissions affecting verified pubs when I was implementing the Changed Primary Verifications report. I agree that it would be desirable to add EditTitle submissions to this report. Title merges may be trickier; I'll have to think about them. Ahasuerus 17:55, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

I think that just highlighting that there had been a merge will be enough if someone wants to look into it - with a surviving note (because the current Recent Edit entry does not show the moderator notes for Merges and Deletes I think. Merges are mostly important in two cases: pseudonyms and translations. In most other cases, they are usually because someone added a book and typed the content instead of importing. On the other hand, this will make the changes page very busy so having two separate levels (show pubs only and show all titles) may be desirable. Just thinking aloud here - may be overthinking some of that. Annie 18:36, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

However - in both cases, we need to think about multiple changes - either by adding ALL changes at the Changed Primary Verifications or by making a list of "here are all changes, click away". Otherwise we are running the risk of me changing substantially the format (fixing links for example) and then someone updating a small to a big letter - leaving both my summary and changed record away from the eyes of the PV. Annie 14:13, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

As Bluesman pointed out earlier, the Changed Primary Verifications page already displays all changes, including multiple changes per day. If you have come across cases where a change to a verified publication didn't appear on the primary verifier's Changed Primary Verifications page, it was a bug and I'd love to hear the gory details! Ahasuerus 16:27, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

I need to remember what the issue was. Maybe if one of the "changers" was the PV? Will post back when I remember what that was all about (and because of that my mind somehow decided that we never have the duplicates. Looking at my own list, we obviously do so apparently I am a bit confused. Sorry! Annie 16:39, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

I think that in the meantime, using the moderator note field is a useful, albeit imperfect workaround. Annie 14:13, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

PulpCovers.com covers

Apparently, 4 years or so ago, the site owner gave permission to use their covers over here. What is the correct process here:

• Ask the user to send an email from the domain (to verify that it is them?)
• Just accept it as stated
• Something else?

And if that is enough, can we have it added? I am holding a submission from them with another link and I explained the situation to them.

PS: And it is a good site to have permission to link to. Annie 12:30, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

I think the permission posted on our Wiki should be sufficient in this case. I have updated the software to credit the site. Approve away! Ahasuerus 13:14, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

Done! Can you add it to the help page as well? Thanks! (over here :) Annie 13:44, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

Added and alphabetized. Ahasuerus 14:35, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

demon.co.uk

Our UK-based spies are reporting that "UK Demon Internet" (demon.co.uk) has undergone a number of changes over the last few months. As a result, many non-business users, including some SF people, have moved their Web pages elsewhere. We have a couple dozen author records which link to Demonic web pages, so it would be good to double check that our data is still valid. Calling for volunteers! Ahasuerus 13:24, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

I will see what I can do today. Annie 14:59, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

The only ones that need attention are the 11 that used to be on fiawol.demon.co.uk (this is the list. The rest are either verified (they are still where we think they are) or updated now (for the ones that had moved). All of these are invalid - but I want to spend some time to try to find where the sites went (if anywhere) and a quick look did not find them. Annie 15:40, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

Template:PublicationFields:ExternalIDs

I've tweaked the layout of Template:PublicationFields:ExternalIDs in order to make it more readable and helpful. I added some descriptions so people will have a better idea about each one. If those familiar with the different IDs can add information on how to find it when viewing a record on each site, that will make the page even more helpful. Also, if there is a Bulgarian name for the SFBG, that should be added to the entry in the table. Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:09, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

No Bulgarian name really - it is an abbreviation of Science Fiction - Bulgaria :) Known as SFBG - both on the site and in any conversation or site that cares what a site calls itself. Added some notes. I like the new format :) Annie 15:36, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

Glad you like it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:45, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

Search by External Identiier issue

Can we have this search strip leading and trailing spaces? See this? for and example. Annie 20:23, 26 July 2017 (EDT)

Done. Ahasuerus 21:35, 26 July 2017 (EDT)

Thanks! Annie 13:36, 27 July 2017 (EDT)

Duplicate Finder and COVERART

The logic behind the three Duplicate Finder pages has been tweaked. COVERART titles are no longer considered potential duplicates of non-COVERART titles. Ahasuerus 20:09, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

2017 Dragon Award nomination withdrawals

I noticed that Scalzi's and Littlewood's nominations are listed as withdrawn on the award page. However, Dragon Con refused to remove them, so it's still possible they may win. I think these two entries should be changed to reflect that they haven't been removed from the ballot. Thoughts? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:19, 9 August 2017 (EDT)

The first thing that comes to mind is that this is still an ongoing process. Scalzi first announced the nomination, then announced that he was withdrawing. Now the organizers have announced that they will not honor the withdrawing authors' requests. Since things are changing rapidly, we may want to wait and see what happens.

That said, it raises a larger issue. There is nothing preventing an organization from presenting an award to an author who doesn't want it. Consider the Golden Raspberry Awards given to the worst movie/actor/etc of the year. I am sure many awardees would love to be able to refuse them. We don't have anything similar at this time, but there have been complicated situations related to declined nominations/awards. For example, in 1986 Judy-Lynn del Rey was given a posthumous Nebula in the "Best Professional Editor" category. It was refused by Lester del Rey, her husband. We currently list it as a win and explain the situation in notes. Should Scalzi or Littlewood win, we could use a similar approach. Ultimately, we should probably separate "withdrawn" and its siblings from the "award level", but it will require non-trivial software changes. Ahasuerus 18:03, 9 August 2017 (EDT)

I like that idea. I also think that unless the sponsoring organization actually removes them (regardless of which award it is), they shouldn't be listed as "withdrawn". I think it will cause less confusion that way. We could just add a note to each of them that they had declined the nomination but that Dragon Con refused to remove them from the ballot. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:20, 9 August 2017 (EDT)

2017-08-14 update. As per this post, the award committee has decided to honor author requests and removed The Hidden People by Alison Littlewood and The Obelisk Gate by N. K. Jemisin from the ballot. They will "re-issue ballots to those people who voted for these two books". In the meantime, John Scalzi has withdrawn his withdrawal and will remain on the ballot.

Our award records have been updated to reflect the current state of affairs. Everything should be in sync assuming no other surprises. Ahasuerus 18:38, 14 August 2017 (EDT)

Finding month of publication

I was searching for the true month of publication for a book where the pre-release data that we displayed had the paperback being published prior to the hardcover that stated it was a first edition. I discovered that isbnsearch.org is generally able to give months of publication, back at least to 1976. A random sampling search of that site on a couple dozen books that we had months for showed very high agreement with their publication months. I found two disagreements: (1) One that claimed it was published a month later than we had listed (possibly due to Amazon selling books a little earlier than the official release date); and (2) One book where we had a January publication date and they had a December. This later case may be because Amazon defaults to Jan. 1 when they don't actually have a release date, and possibly because isbnsearch.org might default to a December date if they don't know (but I'm not sure of this). This site was fairly week on non-English books, but when they had such data it still agreed with us. Unless someone knows otherwise, this would appear to be a useful site for such bibliographic data. Chavey 09:39, 10 August 2017 (EDT)

Do they explain where they get their data from? Ahasuerus 11:21, 10 August 2017 (EDT)

I can't tell for sure. I suspect this site is descended from the isbnsearch open source project, but I can't find any actual evidence for a connection. If they are connected, then the SourceForge development page describes it as "A distributed search portal of common sources of ISBN numbers". That project has been inactive for 2 years (and the principle force behind it hasn't been involved in any other of his earlier projects, so likely either gafiated or passed on). The source code for that project is available, so you could always take a look. There is also an online discussion about accessing that site via Perl, which looks pretty straight forward. Chavey 03:14, 11 August 2017 (EDT)

The date they list for that pub is the same date as Amazon UK shows. Given that the search results show links to buy the book, the odds are they are pulling the data from their various affiliate sites (Amazon, etc.) and aggregating the results. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:21, 12 August 2017 (EDT)

That's consistent with the statement on the SourceForge page that said they were aggregating from several other sources. If their description is accurate, though, they are pulling from more than just the Amazon pages. Chavey 09:45, 15 August 2017 (EDT)

Is it necessary to distinguish Nynorsk from Bokmål?

Currently the language options here only include "Norwegian." However, there are two written Norwegian languages, Nynorsk and Bokmål, and publishers generally specify which one their book is in on their book listing page (unfortunately, Worldcat does not). Since we only have 130 titles in "Norwegian," it should be possible to figure out which of the two languages most of them are, shouldn't it? --Vasha 21:14, 10 August 2017 (EDT)

Language belongs to titles though - not to publications. Are the two language different enough to require the split of the titles? And when titles are translated, it generally says Norwegian. Trying to split them may not be as trivial as you think. Maybe we can use a note or a new template. Annie 21:31, 10 August 2017 (EDT)

The question of what constitutes a language and what constitutes a dialect is a complex one. Linguists joke that the main difference is the presence of an army and a navy :-) For this reason we use what is listed by ISO 639-2 and MARC21. They are not identical, but they are described by the Library of Congress (which maintains the two lists) as "compatible". We do not use ISO 639-3, which adds hundreds of additional language/dialect/sub-dialect codes.

In this particular case things appear to be a bit more complicated than usual. There are three MARC21/ISO639-2 entries for Norwegian:

• "Norwegian", coded as "nor", also used for Bokmål, Dano-Norwegian, Riksmål and the Trøndersk sub-dialects
• "Norwegian (Bokmål)", coded as "nob", also used for Bokmål, Dano-Norwegian, and Riksmål
• "Norwegian (Nynorsk)", coded "nno", also used for Landsmaal (Landsmål) and Nynorsk

I have managed to find which of the two it is for all of the Norwegian titles but four. --Vasha 19:48, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

It would appear that we should keep "Norwegian" and add "Norwegian (Bokmål)" as well as "Norwegian (Nynorsk)" to be used when we know which version was employed. We may want to consult User:Linguist to make sure that the summary above is correct. Ahasuerus 23:09, 10 August 2017 (EDT)

Wikipedia writes "After the latest Bokmål reforms, the difference between Bokmål and Riksmål have diminished and they are now comparable to American and British English differences." That's the impression that I've had from my Norwegian friends. So if we do distinguish between Bokmål and Riksmål, should we begin to distinguish between books in American English from those in British English? Iberian Spanish from South American Spanish? Canadian French from European French? High German from Bavarian German? Chavey 03:27, 11 August 2017 (EDT)

"Language vs. dialect" can be a thorny area, which is exactly why we rely on a better qualified third party to make the decision for us. We generously let them figure out whether "Zacatlán-Ahuacatlán-Tepetzintla Nahuatl" and "Tetelcingo Nahuatl" merit separate language codes :-) Ahasuerus 10:37, 11 August 2017 (EDT)

I would tend to go along with Ahasuerus here, and think it would be useful to have extra "Norwegian (Bokmål)" and "Norwegian (Nynorsk)" at our disposal in case a pub is specifically ascribed to one or the other. But on the other hand, it wouldn't be a great sin to keep using "Norwegian" in other cases — or even all cases — as we have been doing so far (and it would save a bit of trouble). In other words, I don't think it's essential, as indeed the difference is not enormous today, but if some finicky editors are prepared to go into these details, why not ? :o) Linguist 05:09, 11 August 2017 (EDT).

Well, if they're that similar, then it certainly isn't essential. The reason I asked in the first place is because the book I just added, Knots by Gunnhild Øyehaug, had a reviewer talking about "the original Nynorsk" in a way that made it sound like a difference. --Vasha 13:22, 11 August 2017 (EDT)

One thing to keep in mind is that we need to support not only "living" languages, but also "historic", "extinct", "ancient" and "constructed" languages like Old English, Latin and Esperanto. If the differences between "Norwegian (Bokmål)" and "Norwegian (Nynorsk)" were sufficiently important to merit separate ISO codes in the past, we probably need to be able to capture them. Ahasuerus 14:00, 11 August 2017 (EDT)

And the publisher did specify Nynorsk. But I think no harm in ignoring that, myself... To be sure, German publishers distinguish books translated "aus dem Englischen" and "aus dem Amerikanischen." Eh, matter of taste... --Vasha 13:22, 11 August 2017 (EDT)

FWIW, some English language publishers include notes along the lines of "This book uses British English spelling". Ahasuerus 14:00, 11 August 2017 (EDT)

That level of detail strikes me as being worth a title note, but not a specification of a different language. My Norwegian friend (born and raised in England; spent all of his professional life in Norway) compares Nynorsk to King James English, but there remain certain literary journals that require submissions to be written in that form. Chavey 00:28, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

The nice thing about relying on a "trusted third party", in this case ISO 639-2, is that it lets us sidestep various linguistic controversies like Serbian-vs.-Croatian-vs.-Serbo-Croatian. If we were to make an exception, no matter how well-meaning, we could be asked to make further exceptions in the future, thus raising the very issues which we tried to avoid in the first place. Ahasuerus 17:01, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

(unindent) "Norwegian (Bokmål)" and "Norwegian (Nynorsk)" have been added. Unfortunately, "Bokmål" is currently displayed as "Bokmal" for technical reasons, at least for now. Ahasuerus 17:09, 19 August 2017 (EDT)

I have managed to find which of the two it is for all of the Norwegian titles but four. --Vasha 19:50, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

Great, thanks! 20:27, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

New Wiki page: current genre publishers

While searching for new releases in short fiction, I started taking notes on publishers, and have now posted my notes here: Guide to Genre Publishers. It includes all those I know of who've published something in 2017, with the exception of those (many!) who only publish a single author. There's 150 at the moment; naturally, I must have missed quite a few. At the bottom is a rather haphazard selection of publishers who've brought out some speculative fiction this year but don't specialize in it.

I hope you may find this useful as a resource for keeping up with what's new. I hope you will expand on it, and feel free to improve the design. --Vasha 16:35, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

New genre publishers only or reprint ones as well? Because I am missing a couple from the latter. :) Annie 16:49, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

It's supposed to be new publications of all sorts, including reprints. Please do add more! --Vasha 16:54, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

Looks quite useful. Perhaps we can automate all or at least some parts of the compilation/maintenance process. Running a query against the database for 2017 publications, I get the following list of the 20 most prolific publishers:

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| publisher_name                        |           count |
+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Tor                                   |             169 |
| Turtleback Books                      |             163 |
| Escape Artists, Inc.                  |             137 |
| Titan Books                           |             115 |
| Gollancz                              |             113 |
| HarperCollins                         |             102 |
| Stone Arch Books                      |              99 |
| Orchard Books (UK)                    |              96 |
| Little, Brown Books for Young Readers |              86 |
| Tor.com                               |              86 |
| Bloomsbury USA Children's Books       |              79 |
| Baen                                  |              77 |
| Orbit (US)                            |              75 |
| Gateway / Orion                       |              73 |
| J. H. Sweet                           |              73 |
| Aladdin                               |              72 |
| Angry Robot                           |              70 |
| Orbit                                 |              69 |
| Disney/Hyperion Books                 |              68 |
| Scholastic Paperbacks                 |              67 |
+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

A little tweaking can further improve the query logic, e.g. by eliminating single-author publishers and displaying each publisher's Note field. We can then turn this query into an overnight report and add it to the ISFDB Statistics and Top Lists page. The only thing that may require additional work will be linking the new page to Amazon search pages. (At the very least we will need to strip all disambiguators like "(US)", "UK", etc.) We will also want to display multiple publisher- and store-specific Amazon links: one for all US/UK/CA/etc books, one for all 2016/2017/etc books, and so on. Ahasuerus 12:34, 14 August 2017 (EDT)

I've added the ones in that table (except for Turtleback, Escape Artists, and J. H. Sweet which are all irrelevant for various reasons). But I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean about automating updates. It will almost always take some hand-work to find the correct links. --Vasha 00:51, 15 August 2017 (EDT)

Well, it depends. Some publisher names are unique and unlikely to cause issues across Web sites. For example, 47North can be used "raw" in Amazon.com searches. It can also be used in WorldCat keyword searches. On the other hand, Orbit (US) can only be used in Amazon searches after stripping the parenthetical disambiguator and it's completely useless on the WorldCat side. Then there are imprints like Orchard Books / Scholastic which clearly require manual massaging. Finally, there are publishers like The Black Coast Press, which Amazon lists as something completely different.

Perhaps we could add a new field to publisher records, something like "Name used by external sites". We could then use this name (if provided) to build search URLs for Amazon US/UK/etc and potentially other sites.

It also occurs to me that broadly similar functionality could be useful when working with other records. For example, if we could link Summary Bibliography pages to WorldCat/Amazon/etc (and optionally limit them to a single year), it could benefit both active editors and occasional users. Ahasuerus 11:55, 15 August 2017 (EDT)

(unindent) BTW, here are the next 30 "most prolific publishers of 2017":

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| DAW Books                             |              66 |
| HarperTeen                            |              66 |
| Yen On                                |              66 |
| Del Rey                               |              64 |
| Sky Pony Press                        |              57 |
| Scholastic                            |              55 |
| Scholastic Press                      |              54 |
| WordFire Press                        |              53 |
| Saga Press                            |              52 |
| Ace Books                             |              49 |
| Wildside Press                        |              49 |
| Brilliance Audio                      |              48 |
| 47North                               |              46 |
| Square Fish                           |              46 |
| Random House                          |              44 |
| Heinrich Bauer                        |              44 |
| Simon Pulse                           |              42 |
| Bloomsbury Children's Books (UK)      |              42 |
| Head of Zeus                          |              42 |
| Egmont Books Ltd                      |              39 |
| Houghton Mifflin Harcourt             |              39 |
| Scholastic UK                         |              38 |
| Heyne                                 |              38 |
| Candlewick Press                      |              38 |
| Games Workshop                        |              38 |
| Amulet Books                          |              38 |
| Alfred A. Knopf                       |              37 |
| Hodder & Stoughton                    |              36 |
| Delacorte Press                       |              36 |
| Berkley Books                         |              36 |
+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

Ahasuerus 12:02, 15 August 2017 (EDT)

Here's the ones that are different on that page so far, which is the tip of the iceberg, since Amazon is rarely consistent.

ISFDB	Amazon
Ace Books	Ace
The Alchemy Press	Alchemy Press
Alfred A. Knopf	Knopf
Apex Publications	Apex Publications OR Apex Book Company
Atheneum Books for Young Readers	Atheneum
Avon	Avon Books
Berkley Books	Berkley
Bizarro Pulp Press	Bizarro Pulp Press - JournalStone
Bloomsbury Children's Books	Bloomsbury Childrens
Covet / Entangled Publishing	Entangled: Covet
Crown Publishers	Crown
DAW Books	DAW
Disney/Hyperion Books	Disney-Hyperion
Egmont Books	Egmont OR Egmont Books
Emily Bestler Books	Atria/Emily Bestler Books OR Emily Bestler Books
Faber and Faber	Faber & Faber
Farrar, Straus and Giroux	Farrar, Straus & Giroux
G. P. Putnam's Sons	G.P. Putnam's Sons
Harlequin MIRA	MIRA OR Mira Books
Henry Holt	Henry Holt and Co. (BYR)
Indigo	BHC Press/Indigo
Laksa Media	Laksa Media Groups Inc.
Little, Brown	Little, Brown and Company
Penguin Books	Penguin OR Penguin Books OR Penguin Classics
The Penguin Press	Penguin Press
Pocket Star Books	Pocket Star
Select Otherworld / Entangled Publishing	Entangled: Select Otherworld
SMP Swerve	Swerve
Talos Press	Talos
Vintage Books	Vintage
Weidenfeld & Nicolson	W&N

Vasha 11:46, 17 August 2017 (EDT)

"Resist and Refuse" Magazine

Does the magazine Resist and Refuse sound like something that could be included here? It's a political magazine by weird fiction/horror writers. There will be fiction and the description says "Each story is to some degree related to the general themes explored in the zine and most have a dark and/or weird tone." Having a weird "tone" isn't exactly the same as being weird fiction... I think, personally, I would not include it in the database until someone reads it and says whether any of the stories are speculative. --Vasha 21:14, 17 August 2017 (EDT)

It looks like a non-genre magazine, although I expect that, given participants like Cody Goodfellow, some of the content may be at least borderline SF. I agree that we should wait for the first issue to appear. Ahasuerus 22:14, 17 August 2017 (EDT)

Add an editor to series entries

It has been suggested that series entries should have a field for "series editor". I think this is a good idea as there are a fair number of series that have editors who are different than those for the titles included in them. Thoughts? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:59, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

How would it work if a series had different "series editors" at different points in time? Would it require splitting the series? Ahasuerus 18:15, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

Maybe have an optional text field where the volume numbers or years can be entered? I'd prefer not to split the series, though perhaps it could be turned into two sub-series within a container series, the way we do with books in series within series. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:29, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

And about the cases where there are more than 2 editors in different times - a new one every 5 years or one doing the series for 30 days and then followed by a few with a few each year - what qualifies? Or when there are multiple ones on the series level and they are different each year? Where will be the boundary?

And what about translation editors for example - in some series, they do more work on the translated series than the series editor does. Who will make the decision who is eligible to be added to the field? The idea sounds interesting on the surfaces but opens the door way too much for a subjective decision on what is really a series editor and what does not... Annie 19:23, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

I don't think it's terribly ambiguous. If they are credited as "series editor" in the book, that's who you put in the field. If they are credited as something else, you don't list them as a series editor. We can make a specific list of who would be included. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:28, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

And what happens when the series editors change every year or every few years? We list all of them? Enforcing a rule based on a number will make it very unfair. Annie 19:37, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

Based on what number? The only number I mentioned was to perhaps have a field where volume numbers could be listed next to each series editor (like we do for omnibus volumes). How does that limit it or prevent series editors from changing? It would display something like this:

• Series: Amazing Series Example
• Series Editor: Editor Name (1-6), Editor Name (7-10), Editor Name (11), Editor Name (12-37)

Pretty straight forward. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:22, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

• Series Editor: Editor Name (1-6), Editor Name2 (1-2), Editor Name3 (2, 14), Editor Name4 (3-4) and so on... Not all series editors are straight forward. Or single editors. Annie 20:31, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

Yes. I'm not seeing an issue. It still lists all of them. You could even do it by years if that was applicable:

• Series Editor: Editor Name (1983-1987), Editor Name (1986-1999), Editor Name (1997), Editor Name (1999-present)

···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:34, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

If we allow multiple formats, the editor's page will become inconsistent (they will have one note for a series with (1-3), one with years and third one with titles for example (because the series was never numbered for example). I do like the idea in general but I do not think that just adding the field and modifying the author pages to show it is as trivial or so without problems... And sooner or later, we will get a "but I want to go on the editor page to see which exact books they were a series editor for" request (as opposed to the just show the list of series and needing to click down to it.

And I do not think that making half a feature (there on the series page, but not visible on the author page) will be a good idea. Once we start talking about showing that on the author page, we have to deal with pseudonyms (do we link to the pseudonym used or to the canonical (and what of the person changes their name - do we add two(+) records)? How do we show that on the author page - combined or as two(+) records?

If that feature is ever implemented, I think it needs to tie to translators and other types of people that we do not record now both on the pub and on the series level (editors for collections for example. Or for novels) as opposed to just doing something for one case. And we need to make sure that we do not just overload the page with links (longer series volumes will end up way down the page when we finish listing the series editors for some special cases. And Publication series also need editors assigned if we are going there. Annie 21:00, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

Opposed to this move. All this steming from (IMHO) an ego problem, an "uncredited" editor that wants absolutely to be listed (he tried this before under another pseudonym). Apart from this dishonest attitude, the concept of "series editor" is way too much nebulous to be used.Hauck 06:06, 19 August 2017 (EDT)

I'm not sure it's terribly nebulous when the front cover or title page indicates a "Series Editor". If it's not credited, then we wouldn't include it. Not nebulous at all. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:40, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

Sure, when you'll find the mention of a "Series Editor" in another language than english (you know that we also cover those, I suppose), just call me, I'm waiting. Hauck 04:02, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

Why are you being so snarky? You're acting like I'm some clueless idiot who needs your benevolent wisdom (at least that's the way it reads to me). Regardless of whether the editor who initially wanted this was acting in his own self interest, it's a good suggestions that should be addressed seriously. And yes, I know we have other languages here than English (that should be pretty obvious to anyone who has seen my contributions, of which you have seen and approved many). I've seen series editors for Japanese anthology series, too. You even mention a French one below, so that's at least three languages with clear examples. I'm fine with waiting to implement it with other contributor roles, but please don't treat me like a moron. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 12:46, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

Unfortunately, tone can be difficult to convey on the internet :-( In addition, sarcasm is treated differently in different cultures (and even sub-cultures), which increases the likelihood of misunderstanding. Once you add various linguistic nuances, even between different versions of English (e.g. "When would you like me to knock you up tomorrow?" or "let's table this plan"), to the mix, misunderstandings start to pile up and it can be difficult to deescalate the resulting conflict. Ahasuerus 13:59, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

(after sleeping on it) Based on the fact that "series editors" can change over time, I think that the proposed field would have to be associated with Title records rather than Series records. It would also have to be a multiply occurring field (similar to authors, transliterations, Web pages, etc) in order to support scenarios with multiple "series editors" per volume. Finally, it would need to support pseudonyms.

Although quite time-consuming, it would be possible to implement. However, I agree with Annie that it would be better to address this functionality as part of a larger project to add support for "contributor roles" like translator, "adapter", "cover design", etc. Ahasuerus 08:54, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

We may even be forced to locate this "role" at publication level. In France, we have the "directeur de collection" ("Publication Series Manager/Editor") role that may bear some likeness to the proposed Series Editor. The person at this post is of course usually changing with time. So let's suppose that a precise title is first published under series editor X's reign, then reprinted (with a new cover to distinguish things) at a time when series editor Y is at the helm. Who shall get the credit if it's located at title level? X because he likely bought it, Y because he choosed to reprint it? Both? Hauck 09:26, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

I would say we credit it however it's credited in the work. If both are listed, then list both. If only one is listed, then list only the one credited. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 12:48, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

I think the first question that we will need to address is which "roles" will be associated with title records and which ones will be associated with publication records. For example, I am reasonably sure that we will want to associate "translators" with title records. On the other hand, "cover designers" will be most likely associated with publication records: multiple publication records can use the same COVERART title, which will be arranged differently by different cover designers.

However, what about "single author book editors"? A number of publishers, including major publishers like Tor, have been know to list the name of the person who edited the first edition of a book. Should we associate this "role" with title records or with publication records? Ahasuerus 14:11, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

Maybe we should make a list of all the different roles people have suggested over the years first. I think it will be easier to consider which records to attach them to if we have a good list to work from. Here's a quick list:

• Series editor
• Translator
• Cover designer
• Text/Book designer
• Adapted by

Anything else? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:10, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

The original discussion of roles is here. A lot has changed since 2009, so take it with a grain of salt, but I think that some of the ideas are still relevant. Ahasuerus 20:32, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

List of roles

Role	Level
Adapted by	Title?
Back Cover Artist	Publication
Collection Editor	Title, Publication
Cover Designer	Publication
Cover Photographer	Publication
Editor	Title, Publication?
Interior Layout Designer	Publication
Narrator/Reader	Publication
Series Creator	Series, Publication Series
Series Editor	Series, Publication series, other?
Translator	Publication

I also like MHHutchins' comment at one of the previous discussions:

I don't think authors (in our current use of the word which includes artists and editors) should be assigned roles, but that roles should be assigned to authors. There's a difference there. Let me explain. Robert Silverberg should have one record for all his credits. His relationship to the publication is defined by the role we assign him. The system automatically assigns him the role of editor when the pub type is ANTHOLOGY, as it assigns him the role of author when the pub type is NOVEL. If he were credited with an INTERIORART credit, we would assume him to be the artist, even though there is no such credit explicitly assigned by the system. I would suggest a entry form that allows a drop-down menu to assign pre-defined roles then allow the editor to add another credit (as it does now for cover art). That way we can assign as many roles to a publication as are necessary. The system will combine these credits into one "author" summary page, but only display the assigned role on the publication record. To bring up a recent example: Robert Conquest edited The Robert Sheckley Omnibus, but there is no credit on his summary page. Once role assignment has been implemented, it will. The question is: how will it be displayed? Perhaps under a newly created Book Editor category. Which begs another question: how will this is differentiated from books listed under Anthologies which at the moment assumes the author to be the book editor? MHHutchins 23:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I think his suggestion is a good one: making a drop-down where we can assign different roles to every person attached to a particular title. This allows quite a bit of flexibility in doing things like adding an editor to each title in an anthology (if they each had different ones, which I've seen occasionally).

Feel free to edit the table to add other possibilities (or suggest them and I'll add them). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:27, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

The following is IMHO. First, we're going way too far in the details. Presently, the photographer of a photographic cover is credited as cover artist, why create another category (and so why not "cover aquarelist", "cover photoshoper" etc...), this kind of list is nearly infinite (I've seen pure genre books -NESFA?- where the font designer is credited) and can be easily expanded many times (proofreader, typesetter, packager, publication series designer, inker...). Second, for the huge majority of the records most of these new roles will be left void and are irrelevant to a bibliographical enterprise or simply unknowable. Third, there is as usual the problem of definition and the managing of the resulting conflicts, "Series creator" is a perfect example especially when applied to media-related work (who's the creator of Alien, Van Vogt?) and its wonderful world of lawsuits. Fourth there is the problem of levels and its possible impacts on the display. There are some publication series in french that have seven known series' editors, should the PS be split? On what grounds? (i.e. When is a new Series's Editor to be considered as leaving its mark on it? When he enters the company? After a fixed delay?). In general, I'm afraid that we're blindly forging ahead into minute details at a time when more bibliographically central points are still not adressed like the implementation of the printing rank. To be more constructive (It's quite a rare sight), I'd keep for now: Editor (either for COLLECTION or NOVEL records), Translator and a more general Designer. Hauck 02:45, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

To answer some of your comments:

• Two: If they are credited in the book (or in a reliable source), they would be credited here. If not, then they wouldn't be credited. There's no guessing involved. Most books credit at least some of the suggested roles, so it's not really relevant that a given book wouldn't use all of them.
• Three: Unless Van Vogt was credited somewhere as the creator of Alien (which he's not, as far as I I've seen, even though there are a lot of similarities). As with #2, unless they are specifically credited either in the work or in a reliable source, they would not receive credit here. Just like we do it now.
• Four: We can discuss how any new roles would display (that's part of why this discussion is here). As for your example of the French series with seven series editors, I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. I don't think a series needs to be split just because a new editor takes the helm (or joins the previous editor). The new series editor would be recorded when he is credited in the work or in a reliable source. Just like we do it now.

Regarding the rest, what do you mean by "printing rank"? I haven't heard that term before.

Thanks for your comments. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:48, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

It's the last item listed in the Roadmap 2017 section:

• Add a "printing rank" field to order multi-reprinted titles without pub dates

Basically the printing number. Ahasuerus 18:20, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

Aha. I was wondering if that's that it meant. I like that idea, and that might be easier to implement since it's a standalone feature (unless you include the printing year part from more recent publications, as well as the printer information that some publishers include on that line). Thanks for the clarification. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:43, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

Yes, it should be relatively easy to implement compared to roles. We'll have to decide whether the new field will be strictly numeric (1, 2, 3, etc) or whether we'll allow arbitrary text. Making it numeric would make it easy to sort things. Ahasuerus 20:00, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

(unindent) Going back to roles, I believe translators will have to be associated with titles rather than publications. A single pub may contain two dozen titles translated by 10 different people. The same logic would apply to narrators/readers if we decide to implement them.

As far as "series creators" and "series editors" go, I believe that they would need to be associated with titles rather than series. In addition, you can have a standalone title, e.g. a game novelization, with 3 "creators" and 2 authors. If we decide to implement these roles, we'll have to think it through. Ahasuerus 20:11, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

New cleanup report - Potential Duplicate E-book Publications

A new cleanup, "Potential Duplicate E-book Publications", has been coded and deployed. All editors will be able to see the data while moderators will be able to "ignore" records. The data will become available tomorrow morning. Ahasuerus 17:25, 18 August 2017 (EDT)

Note that I'm leaving "as-they-are" the pairs of records where one is given as a Kindle book and the other a Nook book. Hauck 10:56, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

De Nederlandse Bibliografie publication number added as a supported external ID

De Nederlandse Bibliografie publication numbers have been added as supported external IDs. Ahasuerus 16:14, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

And now we have a cleanup report to go with it. The data will become available tomorrow morning. Ahasuerus 16:17, 31 August 2017 (EDT)

Good. Thank you! --Willem 16:34, 31 August 2017 (EDT)

Sure thing! To complete the circle, I have created a "PPN" linking template. Ahasuerus 21:17, 31 August 2017 (EDT)

Award to add: Australian Shadows Award

See AHWA website. --Vasha 17:56, 21 August 2017 (EDT)

Looks pretty solid. Any objections? Ahasuerus 18:42, 21 August 2017 (EDT)

Without objection, so ordered. They have changed their structure a few times since 2005, so I had to create 9 categories to accommodate them. They should be ready for your data entry pleasure! Ahasuerus 19:15, 24 August 2017 (EDT)

(unindent) A correction is needed. As this post shows, the long fiction award began to be called the Paul Haines Award in award year 2013, not 2011. (Haines himself had won it for 2011, before he died.) Therefore, this category needs to be divided into two: "Long Fiction (2011-2012)" and "Paul Haines Award for Long Fiction (2013-)." Everything else can stay as it is.

Note that, following AHWA practice, the years stated for the awards are the years of publication (the award itself is given out the following year). Thus, the 2013 Paul Haines award (the first one) was given in the spring of 2014. --Vasha 12:42, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

OK, I have split the "Long Fiction" category into 2 and added the winners. Ahasuerus 14:09, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

Upon reflection, I am not sure that splitting 2011-2012 and 2013- is the best approach. We have a number of categories whose names have changed over time yet we don't split them. For example, the SFWA Grand Master Award, which we currently list as a Nebula category. Its name was changed to "Damon Knight Memorial Grand Master Award" in 2002, but we have only one category for 1975-2017. Ahasuerus 15:41, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

True. Would make perfect sense just to call it "Long Fiction" with a note. --Vasha 15:55, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

OK, done. Ahasuerus 10:35, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

Good... and the data entry is complete --Vasha 10:50, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

Excellent! Ahasuerus 12:36, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

Nonexistent book

I think I have found a record for a book that doesn't actually exist -- this edition of Samurai and Other Stories by William Meikle. That ISBN is only on Amazon.br and a few other random booksellers; and there is an interview with the publisher in December 2013 where they say that Samurai and Other Stories is forthcoming. Any objections to deleting that publication and changing the title date? --Vasha 16:12, 24 August 2017 (EDT)

I've fixed it. It was likely just a typo. The Kindle edition is listed as January 21, 2014, and the TP version is January 5, 2014. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:38, 24 August 2017 (EDT)

One interesting thing: 978-0-9922182-3-2 brings up the Kindle edition, not a trade paperback edition, on Amazon. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:40, 24 August 2017 (EDT)

Canonical name question: Geoff Brown/G. N. Braun

The author whose canonical name is currently G. N. Braun has equal numbers of records, published simultaneously, as G. N. Braun (fiction) and Geoff Brown (editorial work). The canonical name should be the one that's more familiar, and normally that would be the one used for fiction, but not in this case. As Braun, he's respected but neither very famous nor very prolific. As Brown, he's editor of magazines and anthologies (twice award-nominated), past president of the Australasian Horror Writers' Association, columnist for a major fan site and author of numerous articles, and publisher of Cohesion Press. I have found five interviews with him using the name Brown, one using Braun. So I propose changing the canonical name. Thoughts? --Vasha 09:35, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

Since he writes of himself as G. N. Braun on his own website, I think it would be somewhat confusing to change the canonical name. Stonecreek 04:02, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

OCLC as External Identifier vs. OCLC as Secondary Verification

Now that we have the External Identifier field in place which covers OCLC numbers, is OCLC as Secondary Verification still necessary? I feel like they're redundant now, and that we could probably remove the Secondary Verification option as long as we run a list of all the records that have OCLC 2V's that haven't had their OCLC numbers added as External IDs. (Which isn't likely to be a quick process, but is one we could start.) Albinoflea 16:09, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

It would appear that this will need to be a three-step process:

• Move all OCLC numbers from notes to the External ID field
• Ensure that all OCLC-verified publications have at least one OCLC External ID
• Re-evaluate to see if we would be losing any other functionality by removing OCLC verifications

Does this sound about right? Ahasuerus 12:47, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

I'm not sure why we would remove OCLC verifications. My assumption is that when we do an OCLC verification, we make sure that all of the data we collect that is in that record has been pulled into our record (is that naive of me?). So the OCLC verification would, at least in my (possibly imaginary) world indicated that this data extraction has been done, while just having it as an external ID would mean that we have located the record, but not necessarily extracted the data. Chavey

Plus the verification allows to set a value as N/A do the next editor do not lose time looking for a record. It also contains a date (so it is clear when something was valid so one knows to check for a new record or not). The two things serve different purposes in my mind. Annie 23:50, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

Since WorldCat is not a finite resource, in my mind the N/A would only be a temporary state of affairs... in that sense I feel like its not really like the other resources listed in the secondary verification section, which are primarily bibliographic resources fixed in time. WorldCat is sort of like ISFDB in the sense that it's simultaneously adding new, current material while infilling with older material, especially non-English editions, so if there isn't a record for it today not that's not an indicator that there might not be one at some future date.

While I haven't been here long enough to know the original raison d'être for the Secondary verifications, my sense was that they were a way of asserting the existence of a volume when no primary verification was forthcoming based on the collections of the editors at any given time... basically along the lines of "We've never seen one but it's in Currey so we assume it exists", with the relevant data being extracted into ISFDB until a PV or more detailed source becomes available.

WorldCat entries are not terribly detailed by ISFDB standards, and the Using Worldcat data help page is really just a long cautionary tale. I primarily use it just to grab the OCLC accessioning number so that it can be linked to, which also gives a nice way of locating a copy of an edition in a library. Otherwise I occasionally use it for creating entries to prevent dangling reviews in older publications where the Amazon data is lacking or suspect... but in that sense they're really just stub entries. Most of the time I see an OCLC number and it's already attached to a fairly healthy entry in the DB. And we don't have an Amazon entry for Secondary Verifications, even though we're probably more reliant on Amazon than we are on WorldCat by now.

I would miss the date stamp and user info that Annie mentions, because we don't get that from regular edits and sometimes it can help identify who created or edited a record. In that sense if a WorldCat 2V is the only verification on record, perhaps they are valuable, but if there are multiple verifications WorldCat is probably the weakest, so there isn't likely to be much data coming from the WorldCat record aside from the ID number anyhow.

But that's just my sense from how I use it and how I've seen it used. I'm interested to hear how others are using it. Chavey and Annie's take is interesting because I just assumed that we would want parity... if there was a WorldCat 2V we should have a External ID and vice versa, which is why I felt they were redundant, but if people are using them for two different purposes then that is definitely not the case. Albinoflea 01:15, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

OCLC records are *very* helpful if we don't have a PV (page numbers, anthology contents, and a few other things). If we have a PV on the book, the OCLC has limited usefulness, although I use it for two other purposes: (1) I'll often grab the OCLC plot synopsis to add as our title summary; and (2) It can often be used to identify other editions of that book that exist, and add them as well. Chavey 01:25, 31 August 2017 (EDT)

A. Bertram Chandler Rim Worlds Books

I recently had reason to revisit the Chandler page to enter some new acquisitions. I would like to reorganize the "Rim Worlds" section, and the John Grimes Rimworld section in particular. First, the numbered pubs are in no particular order, neither in order of publication or in order of their point in Grimes' career. But if that were all, I wouldn't bother making changes. The situation that bothered me was that not all of the pubs under the John Grimes heading involve John Grimes. The first two novels (items 1 and 3) are about a character named Derek Carver. The second item, a collection, also features characters other than Grimes (although he appears in one as a minor character). There are others that are non-Grimes as well. And it should be "Rim Worlds", not "Rim World". Any thoughts? Bob 13:07, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

I only read a subset of the John Grimes stories and it was years ago, so I hesitate to give advice. However, this list of Grimes works maintained by David Kelleher looks useful. His site also has a master list of Chandler's works.

My personal recollection is that some stories featuring Grimes were either peripheral or set in what appeared to be alternative continuities, which may present bibliographic challenges. Ahasuerus 12:49, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

That material looks useful; thanks! Bob 16:34, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

Suppression of reference titles

I have been thinking about our last round of discussions re: how we display nonfiction titles in publications. After experimenting with the software on the development server I concluded that we probably have a larger problem.

Back when the "ISFDB 2.0" software was designed and implemented, we wanted the Publication page to distinguish between each pub's "reference title", i.e. the main title in the pub, and all other titles. For this reason we displayed the former on the "Title Reference" line in the metadata section while displaying all other titles in the "Contents" section.

A few years later things began to change. First we realized that some reference titles, notably novels, could have page numbers associated with them. If we didn't display them in NOVEL publications which contained additional titles, the Contents section would look incomplete. For example, consider what this pub with its 4 introductions and 1 afterword would look like if we didn't display the novel title. And so we changed the software to display NOVEL reference titles twice -- once on the "Title Reference" line and then again in the Contents section -- but only for pubs with additional titles. It was inconsistent and duplicative, but we figured it was a relatively uncommon occurrence.

Then we began adding information to the Contents section. We added series data, variant data, pseudonym data, translation information and the juvenile/non-genre/etc flags. However, we didn't change the data on the "Title Reference" line, which is now out of sync with what's displayed for Contents titles.

Consider this NOVEL publication. Its "Title reference" line reads "Fanfaren der Freiheit". If the pub contained an afterword, the same title would also be displayed in the Contents section as follows:

• Fanfaren der Freiheit • [Interplanetary Relations Bureau • 1] • novel by Lloyd Biggle, Jr. (trans. of The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets 1968) [as by Lloyd Biggle]

One heck of a difference.

Also, back when we implemented non-genre/juvenile/etc flags we tweaked the "Type" line of the metadata section to display the reference title's flags. It's really a kludge since the flags are part of the title record and not of the publication record, so they don't belong in the metadata section.

I should add that this is not a novel-specific issue. It also affects other types of reference titles: collections, anthologies, omnibuses, etc.

I can think of two ways of addressing this problem. The first approach is to change the software behind the display of the "Title Reference" line to display the same information as what we display in the Contents section. It would synchronize the two sections, but we would be left with the issue of data duplication for novels and the kludgy flag display. Also, my experiments on the development server suggest that adding more information to the "Title Reference" makes it too long/unwieldy if there is a cover scan.

Alternatively, we could remove the "Title Reference" line from the metadata section and simply display the reference title in the Content section along with the rest of the pub's titles. I think it's a more comprehensive solution and will work better in the long run. However, it will change the appearance of the Publication page, especially the Contents section of NOVEL pubs, so I'd like to solicit feedback before I do anything. So, what do you think? Ahasuerus 20:39, 5 September 2017 (EDT)

That would certainly look good for novels and for monograph NONFICTION. Indeed, I very much like the idea of always displaying the reference title in the contents section in such cases where it is also a regular title. But are you suggesting also displaying container titles in the contents section? A much more awkward prospect. --Vasha 22:01, 5 September 2017 (EDT)

Well, let's use this collection as an example. The "Title Reference" line currently reads "Der Tag ist nicht mehr fern". If the display software leveraged the logic used in the Contents section of the page, the text would change to:

• Der Tag ist nicht mehr fern • by Lloyd Biggle, Jr. (trans. of A Galaxy of Strangers 1976) [as by Lloyd Biggle]

Would that be OK?

Also, it occurs to me that we don't have to change everything in one fell swoop. We could start by taking some of the following steps:

• Always display novels in the Contents section
• Rename "Title Reference" to something like "Container Title"
• Do not display the "Container Title" line for novels
• Change the display logic for other container title types to what's shown for "Der Tag ist nicht mehr fern"

We could then take a break and re-evaluate in a few days. Ahasuerus 23:54, 5 September 2017 (EDT)

So, any objections to the last 4 bullet points? Ahasuerus 18:12, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

No, let's give it a try! Stonecreek 23:47, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

The 4 listed changes have been applied. Let's see if the new layout looks better than the old one. Ahasuerus 17:58, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

I really like how this looks. My only issue is that "Container Title" sounds like obscure jargon; but at the moment I can't think what to call it instead. At least it's obvious what it is, no matter what we call it. --Vasha 19:03, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

A better term would be nice. We can always use more better English! :-) Ahasuerus 21:06, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

I miss the old title reference links. I go from a pub page to the parent title page all the time. It used to be the title reference link was in a consistent place and it was a no-brainer to find it on the page and click. Now it's buried in the contents meaning I need to hunt it down and then carefully position the mouse to avoid ticking anything else. If the pub-notes are long I first need to scroll so I can see the Contents section. Can the "Container title" field be added back for novels? It's still there for collections and anthologies. I think "Title reference" is a better field name name than "Container title". I never minded at all that sometimes it it was duplicative. 80% of the time I'm only looking at the metadata and I ignore the Contents. When I'm verifying a publication's pagination then I'll be looking at the Contents section and ignoring the metadata. --Marc Kupper 02:52, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

It would be easy to display NOVEL reference titles as "containers". The downside would be that they would then appear twice: once in the metadata section and then again in the Contents section. Personally, I don't think it would be a good trade-off, but let's wait for other editors to chime in. Ahasuerus 19:43, 5 November 2017 (EST)

Victor Valla

Jonebergquist has submitted Victor Valla as the cover artist for multiple publications. I have the original edits on hold as there was no source or notification to the primary verifiers. After posting on the user's talk page, the user made subsequent edits (also on hold), providing a moderator's note that gave the source as:

"http://cthulhufiles.com/bb/bboxer.htm also http://toomuchhorrorfiction.blogspot.com/search/label/victor%20valla and my Facebook conversations with Mr Valla"

As this impacts multiple verifiers, I'm posting this centralized notice here and pointing active verifiers to it.

• The Dunwich Horror - Ldb001
• The Dunwich Horror - Bluesman
• The Dunwich Horror - Rtrace
• The Colour Out of Space - Mhhutchins
• The Colour Out of Space - Bluesman
• The Colour Out of Space - Unapersson, Don Erikson
• Nine Stories from The Horror in the Museum and Other Revisions - Rtrace, Don Erikson, Vornoff
• Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos: Volume 1 - Don Erikson, Swfritter, Rtrace
• Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos: Volume 2 - Unapersson, Swfritter, Don Erikson
• The Case of Charles Dexter Ward - Brin1, Don Erikson
• The Trail of Cthulhu - Unapersson, Willem H., Rtrace, Don Erikson
• The Mask of Cthulhu - Willem H., Don Erikson

If anyone has concerns with this sourcing, please post here. Otherwise, I will accept the edits tomorrow and add an appropriate statement to the publication notes. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 21:57, 6 September 2017 (EDT)

Not a fan of blogs as sources, but the data seems solid. --~ Bill, Bluesman 12:37, 7 September 2017 (EDT)

(edit conflict) The Cthulhu Files post seems thoroughly researched, so I would accept it. Here's an archived version of the page, if you wish to use it: archive. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 12:40, 7 September 2017 (EDT)

Edits have been accepted & source note added. -- JLaTondre (talk) 21:02, 7 September 2017 (EDT)

Analog/Asimov's

Just returned from a vacation provided by my medical insurance, although I'm still having some problems. My brother picked up my mail and as soon as I can get to it, I'll list the contents of these magazines, unless somebody gets to them first. MLB 21:55, 8 September 2017 (EDT)

Good to have you back! Just take your time! Christian Stonecreek 00:39, 10 September 2017 (EDT)

Glad you made it through! Ahasuerus 21:03, 10 September 2017 (EDT)

Introductions to Lem's Dzienniki gwiazdowe / The Star Diaries / Sterntagebücher

There seem in fact to exist three different introductions (see here for the initial discussion):

• the introduction from the first edition 1957
• a new introduction plus an introduction for the expanded edition from the second and third editions 1966/1971.

They appear to have become mixed up for the various publications. It seems very likely that the 1957 introduction in fact wasn't published in English, as these editions feature expanded versions and omit the original 26th voyage.

In addition, it will likely be the case that (at least the two later ones for the expansions) are either credited to 'Professor A. S. Tarantoga' or 'Prof. A. S. Tarantoga' (which would be a pseudonym for Lem).

As this issue impacts multiple verifiers, I'm posting this centralized notice here and will pointing some active verifiers to it. Stonecreek 08:36, 9 September 2017 (EDT)

I'm not sure what the 'issue' is? These 'Introductions' are clearly in-universe, thus whatever 'signature' is attached to them can't be considered a pseudonym of the author. If this were a novel they wouldn't even get separate content status. I think it's a stretch even in a collection. --~ Bill, Bluesman 11:55, 9 September 2017 (EDT)

I agree with Bluesman about the authorship. In universe fictional essays don't get a fictional author. As for the dating, my edition states "Original edition: Dzienniki Gwiazdowe, published by Czytelnik, Warsaw, 1971", so I assume both introductions were first published in that publication. --Willem 15:57, 9 September 2017 (EDT)

Thanks for the comments, guys. I still think that we could use the signature as source for the credit (especially since one of the introductions refers to the absurdity of Lem being the author of the stories), but I also can live with that.

I'll variant the varianting of the introductions. There may exist four different introductions from the years 1954, 1966 (we have an edition for that year but without contents), 1971 (reference to LEM and two now shortfictions) & 1971 again? (for the expanded edition). Thanks, Christian Stonecreek 00:37, 10 September 2017 (EDT)

Old ISFDB backups

Now that additional Google Drive space has been donated to our project, I am in the process of making select pre-2017-06 backups available once again. The ISFDB Downloads page should be updated over the next day or two. Ahasuerus 13:30, 12 September 2017 (EDT)

MySQL 4.0/5.1-compatible versions of the existing monthly backups have been uploaded for 2006-2017. If someone needs a particular weekly backup file which hasn't been uploaded, please let me know and I will make it available. Ahasuerus 16:46, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Date order inconsistency

I just noticed that if a title or publication does not have an exact date, only a year, it is listed after exact dates in the publication table on the title page, but before exact dates in title lists. That ought to be made consistent. --Vasha 10:51, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

Originally records with 0000-00-00 dates were displayed first. There was a feature request to make them sort last. It was implemented in 2010. Somewhat later (I can't find the FR right now), the display logic was streamlined to display records with "00" months and days last: 2014-00-00 appears after 2014-01-00, 2015-01-00 appears after 2015-01-12, etc. Ahasuerus 11:35, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

P.S. Of course, these things are never cast in stone. Changes can be reverted (completely or partially) if we determine that they do more harm than good. Ahasuerus 11:50, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

I don't really care whether they are before or after, it's just that they should be the same in publication summaries and title summaries. So change titles to "after"? --Vasha 11:52, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

Sorry, I didn't realize that there was a discrepancy. Could you please post a couple of sample URLs? Ahasuerus 13:49, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

To take the example of the author I was just working on: notice that in the list of publications for "The Afterlife Is What You Leave Behind", 2011-00-00 comes after 2011-07-26; however, in Ben Loory's chronological summary page, "Wings" (2010-00-00) comes before "The Poet" (2010-01-12). --Vasha 14:01, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

Thanks! I'll take a closer look once I am feeling better. Ahasuerus 14:41, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

Actually, it's not as involved as I suspected. Here are the 4 places where we try to account for various 0000-00-00 and YYYY-00 permutations when sorting records:

• Publications for a Title: 2011-00-00 after 2011-07-26
• Author Bibliographies (Summary and Chronological): 2010-00-00 before 2010-01-12
• Publications not in a Publication Series: 1944-00-00 before 1944-05-00
• Publication Series: 1998-00-00 before 1998-05-00

In other words, we have 3 "YYYY-00-00 before YYYY-MM-DD" scenarios and 1 "after" scenario. It would be easy to make things consistent, we just need to decide which option is better. Opinions? Ahasuerus 14:59, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

Actually, I like before better... and that's the easier option too... But I agree that 0000-00-00 should continue to be at the end of the list. --Vasha 15:17, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

I agree with Vasha. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:21, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

I think I prefer the "before" option as well. Ahasuerus 20:11, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

I can live with both. Stonecreek 23:50, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

I would say that exact dates should be first but I can live with either. Annie 10:17, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

(unindent) OK, the change has been made. Please note that it also affected the "Publisher Year" page. For example, "1978-00-00" is now displayed before "1978-10-00" on this page. Ahasuerus 16:05, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Punch

Our friends and co-conspirators at SFE3 have added an article about the UK magazine Punch. We already have a couple of issues on file, but the SFE3 article includes additional information, notably a 1960 series of SF parodies written by well-known authors. In addition, Advanced Title Search for "Title Note contains Punch" finds a number of additional SF stories published in Punch (like this one.) Calling for volunteers. Ahasuerus 16:55, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

I'll work on it. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:41, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Thanks! Ahasuerus 19:02, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

I have entered magazines for:

1. Existing genre stories which had first published in Punch notes containing the full issue date.
2. New stories from the SFE3 entry.

There are some additional genre stores stating first published in Punch, but without the full issue date. I tried searching for more information, but didn't find anything. I couldn't find an obvious Punch bibliography, etc. to make it easy. If anyone wants to try their Google-fu to try and find dates for those issues, that would be a help. -- JLaTondre (talk) 19:52, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Invalid birth places

This report indicates that this author entry has an invalid birthplace. Following the instructions at Template:AuthorFields:BirthPlace, I changed it from "Burford, Oxfordshire, England" to "Burford, Oxfordshire, England, British Empire", but it's still showing up in the report. Since that location was in the British Empire during at the time of his birth (1753), I'm not sure what it needs to be changed to. Ideas? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:14, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

For England, the software recognizes the following combinations as valid:

• Kingdom of England (before 1707-05-01)
• England, Kingdom of Great Britain (1707-1800)
• England, UK (1801 or later)

I thought the template had sections for England and Scotland, but apparently not. Ahasuerus 20:47, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

The template has been updated. Ahasuerus 20:50, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Okay, thanks. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:56, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Date issue in one-line title summaries

While we're discussing display issues, here's something to consider. Currently, regular titles have a top-level record that combines the canonical title, the canonical name of the author, and the date of first publication (or of first book publication in the case of serials). Variants and translations have their date set to the first time that title+author combination appeared (or that's how it's supposed to be done in theory; it's applied extremely inconsistently). Here's how some variants appear when displayed in tables of contents. The first is the canonical name + canonical title; the second is a variant title (and pseudonym also); the third is a canonical title + pseudonym.

1. Record # 1197 | Title: Triplanetary | Author: Edward E. Smith | Date: 1948-00-00

• Triplanetary • [Lensman • 1] • (1948) • novel by Edward E. Smith

2. Record # 893797 | Title: Triplanetary: A Tale of Cosmic Adventure | Author: Edward E. Smith, Ph.D. | Date: 1954-00-00

• Triplanetary: A Tale of Cosmic Adventure • [Lensman • 1] • novel by Edward E. Smith (variant of Triplanetary 1948) [as by Edward E. Smith, Ph.D.]

3. Record # 1281436 | Title: Triplanetary | Author: E. E. Smith, Ph.D. | Date: 1965-08-00

• Triplanetary • [Lensman • 1] • novel by Edward E. Smith [as by E. E. Smith, Ph.D.]

I hope you can see the problem: in the third instance, the date of original publication does not appear. You will be on a publication page when you're looking at that; if you want to know the original date of the work, you click on the contents item to go to the title page, and that takes you to a variant title with a variant date, and you then have to click again and go up to the top-level title to find the original date. What's needed, then, is a revision of the display so as to include the original publication date in all three of those combinations.

It's actually not simple to do that. The current logic has the year of the variant displayed following the title only for the top-level title, as "Triplanetary • (1948)", and that's a good thing; it would be confusing if the year of the variant was always displayed, because we'd see something like "Triplanetary • (1965) • novel by Edward E. Smith [as by E. E. Smith, Ph.D.]" and it wouldn't be clear that that wasn't the date of first publication. So instead, in scenario #2, the date is placed in the "variant of... ", thus: "(variant of Triplanetary 1948)". But that leaves nowhere for the date to go if there isn't a "variant of...", that is, in scenario #3.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'd like to submit, as a shy proposal, a way of rewriting these table-of-contents summaries. How about VariantTitle • (OriginalYear) • length by CanonicalAuthor (variant of CanonicalTitle) [as by Pseudonym], thus:

1. Triplanetary • [Lensman • 1] • (1948) • novel by Edward E. Smith
2. Triplanetary: A Tale of Cosmic Adventure • [Lensman • 1] • (1948) • novel by Edward E. Smith (variant of Triplanetary) [as by Edward E. Smith, Ph.D.]
3. Triplanetary • [Lensman • 1] • (1948) • novel by Edward E. Smith [as by E. E. Smith, Ph.D.]

There's only one problem with this: translations. I would prefer to have the date of the first appearance of that translation displayed next to it rather than the date of original publication. Here's how translations currently look, using the example of a translation that first appeared in 1961:

• Die grauen Herrscher • [Lensman • 4] • novel by Edward E. Smith (trans. of Gray Lensman 1951)

(That is to say, the translation title is being treated the way a variant title would be currently, except for the notation "trans. of..." instead of "variant of...".) I would like to see translations either continue to look like that, or look like so:

• Die grauen Herrscher • [Lensman • 4] • (1961) • novel by Edward E. Smith (trans. of Gray Lensman 1951)

However, we do already treat translations differently from variants for some purposes, so shouldn't it be possible to display the summary line differently for them also? Even if it's not possible, and we had to display translations as "Die grauen Herrscher • [Lensman • 4] • (1951) • novel by Edward E. Smith (trans. of Gray Lensman)" to be uniform with variant titles, I would still prefer that to the current state of scenario #3.

I hope this all makes sense! --Vasha 22:41, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Interesting points, thanks. I'll need to spend some time playing with the data to internalize the permutations... Ahasuerus 12:09, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

Here's another thought; how about displaying both the variant date and the original days after three title, something like this: "Triplanetary: A Tale of Cosmic Adventure • (1954 / 1948)" "Die grauen Herrscher • (1961 / 1951)"

Here are a few more permutations.

1. Publication Record # 633461

Current: Spiegel, the Kitten • novelette by Gottfried Keller (trans. of Spiegel, das Kätzchen. Ein Märchen 1855)

Proposed: Spiegel, the Kitten • (1946 / 1855) • novelette by Gottfried Keller (trans. of Spiegel, das Kätzchen. Ein Märchen)

Note: Currently no variant date displayed because the variant title date (1946-00-00) is the same as the publication date

2. Publication Record # 421763

Current: Cultos da carga da Ilha do Beijo Picante • novelette by Rhys Hughes (trans. of The Cargo Cults of Salty Kiss Island 2017)

Proposed: Cultos da carga da Ilha do Beijo Picante • (2007 / 2017) • novelette by Rhys Hughes (trans. of The Cargo Cults of Salty Kiss Island)

Note: Translation published before original

3. Publication Record # 458637

Current: Fantastic Mr Fox • (1970) • novella by Roald Dahl (variant of Fantastic Mr. Fox)

Proposed: Fantastic Mr Fox • (1970) • novella by Roald Dahl (variant of Fantastic Mr. Fox)

Note: Variant year same as original year.

--Vasha 14:34, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

Poe canonical titles

Currently Poe's stories have their title of first appearance as their canonical title, even though often that title is very rarely used (in a number of cases, such as "Morella" or most of the Tales of the Folio Club, we have no publications using it in the database). What do you folks think about changing to the most common variant as canonical instead? --Vasha 15:24, 18 September 2017 (EDT)

I think we should leave it as it is: It would lead to some chaotics and in theory, these publications should eventually be added. Stonecreek 23:59, 18 September 2017 (EDT)

I agree with Christian. Another wrinkle to consider: If we're dating the variants based on when they first appeared, having something other than the original as the parent will cause everything to appear with an inappropriate date. --MartyD 07:36, 19 September 2017 (EDT)

There are actually quite a lot of cases in the database where the canonical title is the most familiar, widely used variant rather than the oldest one. In that case, the top-level record is given the date of the first publication. The combination of canonical title+canonical author name+oldest date may never have actually appeared in a publication, but it provides a standardized top-level title record. That said, I'm not actually very enthusiastic about creating such records for Poe. I agree with you two that it might disrupt work that people have done. --Vasha 10:59, 19 September 2017 (EDT)

Documenting Verne translations.

Someone has done a wonderful job of documenting the various translations of "Voyage au centre de la Terre" here. Unfortunately, this has not (yet) been extended to his other novels. I'm prepared to take a shot at this, but wanted to discuss the organization of the material first.

The translation information is laid out chronologically. If you examine the first title for a translation (e.g. the 1877 translation), the first appearance and translator are provided, as well as the text that characterizes that translation. Subsequent titles under the translation (e.g. 1965 retitled translation) repeat the first appearance and translator, but not the text.

For someone entering a publication where the translation/translator are not identified (as is frequently the case), it is not clear which title should be used, or when a new one should be generated. It requires opening each of the primary translation titles to locate matching text. Then, if the titles do not match, checking in the notes for the date of the earliest match for the title. Only then can the title be selected and a publication be added. This assumes that you do not have an earlier publication, for which you would have to updated the notes (as the dates are not generated).

Given that we do not have ways to identify translators or translations, or to make variants of variants, I was hoping we could still provide a better approach for people entering publications. I would like to make the identifying text more obvious by moving it up to the notes. For two different translations this might work, but here there are twelve. (The thirteenth is for unidentified translations - meaning someone did not have (or use) the text to differentiate the translation.) The amount of text would push the publications down by a screen or two. Is there some way to handle longer title notes? Is there a simple way to refer or even link to the titles without relying on the date? Doug H 15:07, 21 September 2017 (EDT)

Google Books warning

As many of you know, we had some issues with Amazon's API as a source of "forthcoming books" data earlier this summer. As part of my efforts to find an alternative source, I tried leveraging Google Books' API. Unfortunately, it turns out that the quality of their data for forthcoming books is much worse than Amazon's. Not only do they have less information than Amazon, much of what they have is badly mangled or just plain wrong. Please be extra careful when using their data. Ahasuerus 16:10, 26 September 2017 (EDT)

Anyone know Armenian?

I think this publisher should be Աջափրթ, but I can't find anything about them online. The only publication in the db is this one, so they may no longer be in business. Thanks in advance! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:55, 27 September 2017 (EDT)

User:Linguist was able to help with Armenian books in the past, but he is on hiatus at the moment. Ahasuerus 09:03, 27 September 2017 (EDT)

This is one of the books that was added based on a The Baum Bugle review. So I wonder if the review does not have more information - even if he does not speak the language, a scan will allow someone to decipher (I know the alphabet and a few words in Armenian - nowhere near enough to research this)? Maybe User:Rtrace would know something? I will ping him. Annie 18:45, 27 September 2017 (EDT)

Sounds like a plan. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:19, 27 September 2017 (EDT)

The review in the Bugle lists the publisher as "Ajpetrat" and further states that they are located in Erevan. The review does not give the Armenian title nor does it have a picture of the cover, though they state that it has the same design as the 1960 Russian edition. The other details for the book must have been added from the other source mentioned in the notes, which was added by someone other than me, so I'm afraid I'm not much help. I don't know if that source is eligible for inclusion as a work about speculative fiction. I did search the first word "Незнакомый" and it does not appear to be in the database. I had hoped to find who added that part of the note. Sorry the review didn't have more information. --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 19:08, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

Thanks for chiming in - it was just a thought that something may be hiding there. I suspect the rest of the data came from User:Linguist - seems like we will need to wait for him (the cited book is not eligible for inclusion - it is non-fiction about Volkov (Title is: The Unknown Volkov in Memories, Letters and Documents) and he is definitely not above the threshold so it is not about speculative fiction no matter how you slice and dice it. Annie 19:28, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

This Wikipedia page lists a non-fiction book published by "Հայպետրատ", i.e. "Ajpetrat", in 1962. It links to this cover scan. A little googling finds books published by Ajpetrat in 1952-1962 as well as various bibliographic comments indicating that it was aka "Armenian State Publishing House". Ahasuerus 19:58, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

P.S. Re: The Unknown Volkov, some chapters are available online. The one dealing with this translator is available here. As I recall, I found it when we were first trying to clean up translations of Volkov's books. Ahasuerus 20:05, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

Now, that is the only thing that I did not look at - good old Wikipedia... I am not sure why not. I do agree with your analysis though. :) Annie 20:07, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

"Analysis" sounds so much better than "random googling" :-)

Re: "The Unknown Volkov in Memories, Letters and Documents", I believe it's eligible. The Rules of Acquisition state that all "works about speculative fiction" are eligible. The notorious "certain threshold" only comes into play when dealing with:

• works ... which are not related to speculative fiction, but were produced by authors who have otherwise published works either of or about speculative fiction over a certain threshold.

Ahasuerus 10:59, 29 September 2017 (EDT)

I do not consider Volkov to be above the threshold (as I mentioned above) though. I know that he is mainly known for the pseudo-Oz stories these days but he published quite a lot of things outside the genre. If we consider them above the threshold then yes, it will be elligible Annie 14:50, 29 September 2017 (EDT)

It looks like Volkov wrote 7 genre novels and 11 non-genre ones, mostly historical fiction. I guess he was primarily a non-genre writer.

That said, the "threshold" only applies to SF authors' non-genre works. If we decide that Volkov is below the "threshold", it will mean that we won't list his non-genre novels and stories. However, it won't necessarily mean that all books about him should be out of scope. It all depends on the nature of each book since the standard is "works about speculative fiction".

Consider George Orwell. He was primarily a non-genre author and wrote only 2 SF books in the last 5 years of his life. We wouldn't want to include books about his childhood or early career since they have nothing to do with SF. However, a non-fiction book about his work on Animal Farm and/or Nineteen Eighty-Four would be eligible for inclusion.

Similarly, a book about Volkov may or may not be eligible depending on what it contains. If a significant part of the book is about his SF, then I believe it should be eligible. Ahasuerus 19:50, 29 September 2017 (EDT)

No argument at all. But this one is not eligible if Volkov is not genre - not from what I saw in the book. Annie 00:17, 30 September 2017 (EDT)

Ah, I see. I haven't really examined the text beyond checking the spelling of the translator's name, so I am not in a position to judge. Ahasuerus 15:01, 30 September 2017 (EDT)

Last Activity Date

I would like to suggest that we tag the moderators listed on the Moderator Availability board with their “last activity date” as we do for the permanent verifications. If it’s not to difficult, perhaps we could tag all editors too.--Rkihara 13:50, 30 September 2017 (EDT)

We have limited control over the Wiki software, so I don't think we could get it to display "last activity" dates automatically. However, we could create a new ISFDB page to display an arbitrary editor's last activity date. We could then create a template to link to it from the Wiki side. The ISFDB URL would be something like "www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/last_user_activity.cgi?Ahasuerus". Ahasuerus 15:06, 30 September 2017 (EDT)

Whatever works. I think this would allow us to more effectively direct queries regarding edits, and find active moderators.--Rkihara 12:33, 7 October 2017 (EDT)

Sounds good. I will work on it once I finish mitigating the changes to the Amazon API. Ahasuerus 14:15, 7 October 2017 (EDT)

P.S. FR 1097 has been created. Ahasuerus 14:18, 7 October 2017 (EDT)

Help with Tianxia Bachang

Delacorte Press is about to release The City of Sand, a book by Tianxia Bachang, a Chinese author. I assume that it's a translation of the first novel in his Gui Chui Deng series, but I am not positive. Do we have anyone whose Chinese is good enough to sort things out and to set up VTs/pseudonym?

Also, according to SFE3, the original text, which was self-published online, contained multiple fantasy elements:

• ... risking censure for its possible allusion to Magic, regarded as an illegal superstition in the People's Republic (see Huang Yi). Consequently, there is a marked difference between the original online samizdat publications of the stories and their later appearance in print, which interpolated mitigating explanations for all supernatural phenomena, suggesting that any Zombie infestations, spirit hauntings and demonic assaults (see Gods and Demons) experienced by the characters were, for example, mere dreams or the result of poisoning by noxious tomb vapours.

It would be nice if we could determine whether subsequent Chinese editions and foreign translations contain the SF elements which were "mitigated" when the first volume was officially published. Ahasuerus 14:28, 30 September 2017 (EDT)

天下霸唱 (Tian Xia Ba Chang).--Dirk P Broer 16:54, 1 October 2017 (EDT)

Thanks, I have moved things around a bit to make everything consistent. Ahasuerus 15:35, 3 October 2017 (EDT)

How many Brian Millers are there?

Undoubtedly, not all the titles on the Brian Miller author page are by the same person. But I have no idea how to sort them out. Anyone here know any facts? --Vasha 23:05, 2 October 2017 (EDT)

I'd guess there are three: a pulp artist, a modern artist and an author (though the latter two may prove to be the same). Stonecreek 12:56, 3 October 2017 (EDT)

Murray Leinster's Long Ago, Far Away proved to be not a NOVEL

If there aren't any major objections this, so far a (Complete Novel), was found to be in fact a SHORTFICTION of novella length, and should be unvarianted and re-title-typed. The background is to be found here. Stonecreek 13:02, 3 October 2017 (EDT)

White Noise Press

The small press White Noise Press has a list of everything (?) that they have published since 2006 here. Most (and perhaps all) of the listed books look like SF by genre regulars. Calling for volunteers willing to work on reconciling it with our data. Ahasuerus 15:29, 4 October 2017 (EDT)

Server downtime - 2017-10-08 at 3:30pm

The ISFDB server will be unavailable between 3:30pm and 3:45pm server (US Eastern) time. Ahasuerus 14:57, 8 October 2017 (EDT)

The server is back up. Old versions of Wiki pages have been purged. "User Search", which shows "Last User Activity Date" has been added to Advanced Search. Next I will create a Wiki template to link to it. Ahasuerus 15:46, 8 October 2017 (EDT)

A new template, "UserActivity", has been created. If you enter {{UserActivity|<username>}}, it will link to the new User Search page for the specified user. For example, UserActivity Fixer links to the User Search page for Fixer. Ahasuerus 15:51, 8 October 2017 (EDT)

"Probe", as credited to Margaret Wander Bonanno

We list the Star Trek novel Probe as being by Margaret Wander Bonanno. Bonanno wrote a 17-page essay about this book, the first sentence of which is "This is the tale of PROBE: The Novel I Didn't Write". A summary of this essay is on Fanlore. The executive summary of this essay is: Bonanno wrote about 7% of that book; an initial rewriter (believed to be J.M. Dillard) wrote much of it; the final rewrite, and hence the final version, of the book was done by Gene DeWeese, whom Bonanno credits as the primary writer, and who received most of the royalties. Based on this essay, I propose to change the author of that book to "Margaret Wander Bonanno and Gene DeWeese", with a link to this Fanlore page. This affects 5 verifiers (who will be notified separately), but is an unusual enough change that I felt I should bring it here to see if there are any objections. Chavey 04:22, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

My first reaction was "How confident are we that the "initial rewriter [who] wrote much of it" was J. M. Dillard?" After reading this discussion, I think the answer is "there are some hints, but nothing official". I guess the "initial rewriter" will have to be relegated to Notes. Ahasuerus 16:07, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

I agree. Maybe some day the book will be re-issued and 'corrected' [like MZ Bradley/PE Zimmer for Hunters of the Red Moon]. Until then notes are fine. --~ Bill, Bluesman 12:17, 12 October 2017 (EDT)

The suggestion that J.M. Dillard is the initial rewriter doesn't seem strong enough to put that in the credits: I was only thinking about it as something someone would find if they followed the link to fanlore, but putting it in the notes seems reasonable. That Gene DeWeese is a co-author (or main author) seems strong enough to put it in the actual "author" slot. Chavey 00:12, 13 October 2017 (EDT)

Development update: source control changes

(If you are not a developer, you may want to skip this section.)

As some of you know, SourceForge, the Web site which we use for source/revision control purposes as well as to make our software publicly available, will stop supporting CVS at the end of November. We have to decide whether to move to another Web site which still supports CVS or to migrate to another source control package like Subversion (SVN), Git or Mercurial.

Considering how old CVS is (last update in 2008) and how few sites still support it, I think it's safe to say that we will need to migrate to another solution sooner rather than later. We might as well do it now since we have to do something anyway.

As far as choosing the new source control package goes, my thinking is:

• SVN is more similar to CSV than other solutions, which is a double-edged sword. Although it's newer than CVS, it's almost legacy software at this point.
• Git is by far the most popular package, but it's also the most complex one.
• Mercurial is similar to Git since they are both decentralized source control systems, but it's supposed to be easier to use. I don't have first hand experience with either, so I have no opinion. Mercurial's two disadvantages are that it's less popular than Git and that it requires a specific version of Python, which will conflict with the version that we use. There are ways around Python conflicts, but it's something to consider.

I am currently in the process of setting up an SVN repository and a Git repository on SourceForge. I plan to experiment with both, including loading the history data from our current CVS repository, over the next few days. If you have any thoughts/ideas re: the process, please post them here. Ahasuerus 15:47, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

Git would probably provide the best flexibility. Also, should coding ever spread out again, candidate contributors are more likely to be familiar with it. BTW, Amazon's CodeCommit is Git. It's "free" for small numbers of users, although I don't know how much you have to buy in AWS to have access to it. --MartyD 16:56, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads-up about Amazon CodeCommit! Their "free tier" supports up to 5 users who, as near as I can tell, need to have an AWS account to access the data. I am concerned that it could be an issue for third parties trying to get a copy of our software. Ahasuerus 18:46, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

I've worked with CVS, SVN and Git for years now and I'd advise against moving to a website that still supports CVS. CVS is dead, and that's for some very good reasons. Once you're used to SVN or any other modern versioning system you will never look back to CVS (except for in horror about how cumbersome it was to use). The time to move to another CVS site is much better spent by choosing a site and versioning system which is future-proof for a while.

As for SVN, I wouldn't say that it is almost legacy software now: I'm quite sure it's still widely used - at least in-house in companies (in open source maybe not so much considering the GitHub hype). SVN is still actively developed and will be around for a while. It definitely has its place in world because it's easier to use than Git and has everything you need for simple teamwork and for keeping a good and consistent commit history. Git has a mind-boggling amount of features and options with a pretty high learning curve, and you likely never need most of it, especially if you want to keep the current development process as it is (with you doing most of the development). I'm mostly setting up new projects with Git nowadays, but I keep older ones in SVN because I currently don't feel any need to migrate them to Git.

To sum it up: both SVN and Git should have all features you need for ISFDB development. Choosing Git might be a better choice if you want to attract new developers in the long run. But I think the question may be rather: how much do you want to learn? :) BTW: Switching from SVN to Git later technically is quite easy because the migration (including the commit history) is quite simple (there's even a bi-directional bridge so you can mirror from SVN to Git and vice versa). If you need links to some good tools and documentation regarding SVN or Git let me know and I can post a few. Jens Hitspacebar 17:04, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

Very informative, thanks! Unfortunately, "how much do you want to learn?" is becoming the key question for me. I find it much much harder to learn new concepts these days, which is likely to become an ever larger issue going forward. Under the circumstances, "a mind-boggling amount of features and options with a pretty high learning curve" may not be the best choice. I remember being peripherally exposed to SVN in the 2000s and it seemed manageable. Ahasuerus 18:59, 11 October 2017 (EDT)

Yes, it should be manageable. If I remember correctly I found the transition from CVS to SVN quite easy and somehow "natural" when it happened about ten years ago. There was really no big problem, the main reason may be that they both are centralized versioning systems. Learning Git however was different beast because as a distributed version control some of its core concepts are completely different from SVN (and therefore from CVS). However, most of these differences only become relevant if you're not the only developer but working in a team and have branches and have to merge code and merge conflicts etc etc. Jens Hitspacebar 03:54, 12 October 2017 (EDT)

SVN is definitely much easier! --MartyD 20:59, 12 October 2017 (EDT)

SVN is easy to learn. Git is structured for Open Source programming, where you may have large numbers of potential contributors, and you have to be very careful about letting most of them submit anything. As a result, the algorithms for doing merges, "pull requests" (request that people look at your proposed changes), and handling merge conflicts is very sophisticated, and very hard to learn. We are not doing the kinds of development that Git is designed for, e.g. you tend to work on one thing at a time -- Git supports dozens of teams working in dozens of areas simultaneously. XKCD has done a couple of cartoons about the complexity of Git: https://xkcd.com/1667/ and https://xkcd.com/1597/. SVN, on the other hand, works plenty well enough for projects with a modest number of developers, and is far easier to work with. Chavey 00:31, 13 October 2017 (EDT)

(unindent) Thanks for your thoughts! I guess it will be SVN for now. Ahasuerus 10:04, 13 October 2017 (EDT)

The conversion has been completed and our Wiki-based documentation has been updated. If you find that anything is missing and/or wrong, please let me know. The CVS data hasn't been migrated and remains in the original CVS repository in a frozen state. Ahasuerus 15:45, 25 October 2017 (EDT)

Leonid Andreyeff

Excuse me for asking, but what is the difference between this Lazarus and this Lazarus by Leonid Andreyeff. MLB 19:55, 15 October 2017 (EDT)

The only difference between the two translations that I can see is that one spells the author's last name "Andreyeff" while the other one uses "Andreyev". Ahasuerus 21:22, 15 October 2017 (EDT)

Regular search changes - ISBNs/Catalog IDs

Please note that the way the regular search logic handles ISBNs/Catalog IDs has been changed to look for complete matches rather than for partial matches. For example, if you enter "#PP10" in the search box, it will now find #PP10, but not #PP1004-N, #PP107-N or #PP1008-N. If you need to look for partial matches, please use Advanced Publication Search instead. Ahasuerus 19:00, 26 October 2017 (EDT)

Last User Activity Date

The other day I was working on converting our source code repository from CVS to SVN and needed a guinea pig. I ended up implementing FR 1099 since it was a straightforward change. The following pages were modified:

• Top Moderators
• Top Taggers
• Top Voters
• Top Contributors

One thing that I noticed after adding a "Last User Activity" column to these pages was that the Last User Activity date of some users was "None". For example, consider our third most active voter, User:Tmeekins. S/he has never created a submission, never edited a Wiki page and never verified anything. Since we don't store the date when a vote or a tag is added to the database, voting and tagging are not considered "user activity" for the purposes of calculating the "Last User Activity" date.

The question then is whether we want to change the name of these columns from "Last User Activity" to something like "Last Edit/Verification"? Ahasuerus 19:10, 26 October 2017 (EDT)

That seems like a good change. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:01, 26 October 2017 (EDT)

Adding Fanzines, question 1: Filk Songbooks

I haven't been around much doing "normal" things for the last several months, because I've been working towards entering a variety of fanzines into the system. Collating several collections of fanzines, cleaning up the data, and combining the data from these various collections into a format that I can transfer into our system has been quite time-consuming. I currently have about 15,000 fanzine titles, and well over 50,000 issues in my database, and my goal is to be able to get them to the stage that I can enter them into the isfdb database next summer. As I prepare these, though, I have three questions I want to get advice on in terms of inclusion/exclusion. I'll put these three questions into separate threads to simplify discussion. Your thoughts on any of these questions would be appreciated.

Question 1: Should I include fanzines that are Filking Songbooks? It seems that these are very similar to collections of spec fic relation poetry, so they should probably be included, but I was unable to find any policy on this. I was only able to find one filking book (Music of Darkover) and one issue of one filking fanzine (Xenofilkia), so it seems like we may have had some unwritten policy against such things. I've got listings for a little over 100 filking songbook fanzines listed, so it's not a large number, but I wanted to ask if I'd missed something. Chavey 01:39, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

The only reference to a filk-related discussion that I have been able to find is the following 2011 comment at the bottom of Help:Screen:Moderator:

• There is currently a little question over whether Filk music reviews are "in".

The larger problem that I see with fanzines is that they form a spectrum from SF-centric to so far removed from SF as to be arguably ineligible for inclusion. I suspect that filking has a similar problem, but I don't know much about it. Ahasuerus 19:52, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

I had run across that "Filk music reviews" comment as well, but since that's the only comment either of us could find, it seems that the policy has not been discussed. There is a related question as to when we should include *any* listed fanzine. Some of the perzines I've seen really have no SF related info. Some of them come from important figures in fandom, and hence by analogy with "above the threshold" for regular writers, could be included on those grounds, but others that are listed in, say, the Ned Brooks index, really seem like they're irrelevant to our efforts. The challenge is that an awful lot of the zines on the regular "SF fanzine lists" have too little information to know whether they should be included or not. My inclination is to default to including them, along with a note of the form "subject material unknown to us"; and only discard titles if we *know* they are non-relevant. Chavey 20:21, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

I was thinking about perzines as well. Unfortunately, I don't know what percent of perzines are effectively "SF-free". Using our "threshold" as the inclusion criteria seems reasonable, but I am not sure what to do about the rest. If 80%+ (??) are only marginally related to SF, then it may be safer to exclude perzines by "under the threshold" authors unless there is some indication that they contain SF content. Ahasuerus 15:27, 28 October 2017 (EDT)

Fancyclopedia and ZineWiki do a pretty good job of identifying perzines within their listings. Fanlore organizes things by fandoms, and hence seems to exclude perzines. But the massive listings in libraries, with collections like the Ned Brooks, Eaton, Horvat, Lenny Kaye, Paskow, Coslet-Sapienza, Ransom, etc. don't seem to distinguish perzines from other types of fanzines. Those are the ones that are going to be harder to decide what to do with. My general sense though, from the 2,000 or so fanzines I have, is that even the titles that are listed as perzines are usually (but not always) SF related in some form, even if it's just the inclusion of a convention report. Chavey 00:42, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

I have no objection to including perzines – I think it's mostly a meaningless distinction to us if they have SF content, although I agree only the SF content should be indexed which is a rule of thumb I follow when indexing any fanzine. They often also have letters from authors waaay above the threshold, and perzines do win awards too. My two cents. PeteYoung 05:11, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

Adding Fanzines, question 2: Artists Portfolios

The fanzine world included a lot of fan art portfolios, including portfolios that had no artwork published in regular fanzines, such as Pern Portfolio. Our included SF "art books" tend to be limited to artists who have their art regularly published in traditional SF publications. Should I include fan art fanzines, even if I have no information about what art was actually used in other publications? Chavey 01:39, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

Adding Fanzines, question 3: Fanzine Novels

Once the Fan Fic movement got going strong (pretty much with Star Trek fandom), lots of fans published standalone novels such as Alkarin Warlord (or novellas, etc.). These were referred to as fanzines, had the "stapled, letter-size" format of a fanzine, and were distributed in much the same ways as periodical fanzines. But from a modern viewpoint, these seem like the same thing as current self-published books, which we enter as novels. Should these self-published novels be entered as novels, or as single-issue fanzines? Chavey 01:39, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

If they are novels (or novellas. novelettes, etc.), they should be entered as such. If something is already entered incorrectly, we should correct it. I agree that the publications you're discussing as simply early self-published works. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:57, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

As long as these self-published novels/novellas were not related to established fanzines, I think it would be best to enter them as NOVELs/CHAPBOOks. Those that were published as "special issues" of pre-existing fanzines (assuming that there were any) may be better handled as fanzines with serialized content. Ahasuerus 19:42, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

I agree with this. For example, R & R Special Editions were a couple of solo novels, but I would list them with the R & R fanzine. Similarly, Probe had a set of three specials that were a "title series" of novels, but it's still natural to list them with "Probe". Something Hidden is a standalone novel (not a fanzine special issue), but is one of a series of three novels ("The Explorer Series"). In analogy with current self-published books, we would list them as three NOVELS in a title series. Does that seem right to you? Chavey 20:51, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

Sounds reasonable to me. Ahasuerus 15:21, 28 October 2017 (EDT)

Advanced User Search changes

Advanced User Search has been modified to display the user's moderator flag. A similar change has been made to the "Top Contributors" pages, which will be regenerated in about an hour. Ahasuerus 00:05, 28 October 2017 (EDT)

Changes to post-submission and moderator review pages

The field names displayed on post-submission and moderator review pages have been tweaked to match what is displayed on bibliographic and edit pages. Ahasuerus 13:12, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

Binding -> Format

All known occurrences of the word "Binding" have been changed to "Format". Please let me know if I missed any. Ahasuerus 18:13, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

Mr(.) Skelmersdale in Fairyland

The H.G. Wells short story "Mr Skelmersdale in Fairyland" is one of many works for which we have Titles titles that differ in punctuation only (see also spacing and caps), namely as "Mr" T1029245 (as 1903-02) and as "Mr." T63081 (as 1901). At the moment neither is a variant of the other.

I don't doubt that 1903-02 is the correct date, as we have stated there with a source, and I have in the queue Submission 3607144 which gives complete information on the February 1903 publication with link to its first page at HathiTrust.

For what it's worth, the story is presented there as "M^R Skelmersdale in FAIRYLAND", incorporated in the head illustration pp. 3; Skelmersdale is "Mr." in the text; the running header is "MR. SKELMERSDALE IN FAIRYLAND".

In the second Title record, as "Mr.", we say "First published: The Strand, 1901", no source. The FictionMags Index reports complete issue Contents for The Strand at FictionMags and it does not report Skelmersdale except as we say in the first Title record, as "Mr". Nor did I find him under 'M' in the index at the back of bound volumes 21 and 22 (1901) at HathiTrust: The Strand Magazine.

--Pwendt|talk 17:52, 31 October 2017 (EDT)

Technical problems - 2017-10-31

We are currently experiencing technical problems. I am currently looking into them. There is no ETA right now. Ahasuerus 19:43, 31 October 2017 (EDT)

OK, I think the problems have been resolved. Sorry about the hassle! If you find anything unusual, please let me know. Ahasuerus 19:53, 31 October 2017 (EDT)

Away for a couple of days, and can now log into my talk page/wiki but not the DB?? Keeps coming up with http://cgi-bin/dologin.cgi?index.cgi+0 which doesn't seem right. My browser just laughs .... --~ Bill, Bluesman 12:39, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

Okay, played with it a little and www.isfdb.org is being 'dropped' from the URL. By inserting it before cgi-bin I can log on. --~ Bill, Bluesman 12:49, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

It's doing this for every page I try to open on the DB side. --~ Bill, Bluesman 12:51, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

Thanks, let me take a look... Ahasuerus 13:02, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

I have tweaked some configuration settings. Does it look better now? Ahasuerus 13:13, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

Nope, still drops the www.isfdb.org/ in the page address. Let me refresh/restart and try it again. --~ Bill, Bluesman 13:26, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

Yes, now works. I did the refresh/restart before posting but no effect then, so your changes were the key. Thanks! --~ Bill, Bluesman 13:31, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

Great! Ahasuerus 13:36, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

Mouseover Help bubbles added to publication formats

As per this discussion, mouseover Help bubbles have been added to publication formats. If I missed anything or introduced a new bug, please let me know. Ahasuerus 17:49, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

At the moment, we have an option in "My Preferences" for "Do not display mouseover help on Edit pages", can something like that be added to cover the new ones as well? [The 'Do not display' we have doesn't work on the External ID section]. --~ Bill, Bluesman 18:09, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

I'll second that. Too much visual distraction. --Marc Kupper 01:37, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

In thinking about is more - I don't mind the mouseover help on the edit pages but would like a way to disable the "?" images that are now next to the binding on all of the display pages. Leave the span with the title in place. Someone hovering on a "pb" will see the hovertext. --Marc Kupper 02:16, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

My preference is with Marc. Remove the "? images and just have the mouseover. I'd prefer that on all pages. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:30, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

Well, if the problem is that the current question mark icon is too big and too intrusive, how about we make it smaller and less intrusive? For example:

• tp^﹖, or
• tp^﹖

That way new users will still be able to tell that mouseover Help is available while experienced users won't be bothered as much. What do you think? Ahasuerus 13:14, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

I'd much rather be able to turn it off. Same with the '?' in the editing window for External IDs. At least for most things the 'help' that appears is small, but for that one it's the whole list and because the '?' is so close to the drop-down it jumps out all the time. If that one can't be turned off like the rest of the '?'s in the editing window could it at least be moved to the left side? Another thought: couldn't the "Format" in the header become an active link to the definitions page for same instead of each individual designation having the '?' ? --~ Bill, Bluesman 17:07, 9 November 2017 (EST)

External IDs

Is there a consensus on if we should be moving things out of the notes into External IDs? Many records have an OCLC number and often link as the last line. I assumed the reason these had not been automatically migrated was there's little consistency to the formatting. Some records have LCCN links. Should those be migrated too? Obviously, if there's a pub note that mentions an LCCN or OCLC as part of the note we'd leave that note in place but do we copy the numbers into External IDs? --Marc Kupper 02:56, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

Yes, supported external IDs should be moved to the external ID section. If there is a note that references the external ID, the link should be removed & the note edited (as necessary). There are some cleanup reports (see Notes/Synopses section) that capture items to be worked off. Mostly though, seems people just fix them when they run across them. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:27, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

Ahasuerus was going to work on a macro to move most of these automatically, so I (at least) had stopped doing them manually -- except when I'm editing a Pub record. Ahasuerus: Do you expect to do that macro, or should others (like me) get more aggressive about moving them? Chavey 01:11, 5 November 2017 (EDT)

I updated that Community Portal section a few weeks ago, but it may have been lost in the shuffle. Sorry about that, I should have created a new section. Here is what I wrote at the time:

• I have pretty much abandoned my attempts to convert OCLC links automatically, at least for now. There were just too many permutations and gotchas.

Ahasuerus 08:45, 5 November 2017 (EST)

I'm not surprised! I'll work on it my free time, if I can find any. Chavey 22:56, 5 November 2017 (EST)

Advanced Publication Search - Publication Formats are now a drop-down list

Advanced Publication Search has been changed. If you select "Format" in the leftmost column, the rightmost column changes from a "free text" input field to a drop-down list which includes all supported formats. The middle column, which has values like "is exactly", "contains", etc, hasn't been changed.

If everything looks OK, we can make similar changes to other fields, e.g.:

• publication types
• title types
• title lengths
• languages
• the 4 title flags:
  • juvenile
  • non-genre
  • novelization
  • graphic format

Ahasuerus 16:44, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

Unsupported HTML

[strike]Today[/strike] is valid html (but with chevrons, now it is more like bbcode). [small][/small] does the job too, but is not in the list of official html. [size=-1] is, but would that get flagged down too?--Dirk P Broer 19:06, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

"strike" is no longer supported in HTML5, but "del" and "s" are. The last two are also fully supported by the ISFDB software, so I would recommend using them instead of "strike". Ahasuerus 11:06, 5 November 2017 (EST)

both "strike" and "s" are mentioned as 'obsolete' here. BTW "small" is mentioned there as valid HTML5, but gets flagged as unsupported in ISFDB -while it works.--Dirk P Broer 17:17, 5 November 2017 (EST)

"s" has a complicated history. As the site that you linked explains:

• The "s" tag was deprecated in HTML 4, but it has been redefined in HTML5.

As far as "small" goes, I see no reason why we couldn't support it. Give me an hour or two and I will add it to the list of allowed tags. Ahasuerus 17:39, 5 November 2017 (EST)

Done. Ahasuerus 18:37, 5 November 2017 (EST)

Thanks!--Dirk P Broer 20:16, 5 November 2017 (EST)

Blocking malicious IPs

We have seen an unusually high number of traffic spikes over the last few weeks. A closer examination of our access logs determined that they come from the same group of IP addresses which send up to 100 simultaneous requests to the ISFDB server. I am not sure if they are trying to scrape our data or doing something else, but it's been affecting system performance since they do not respect the limits that we set for data mining robots.

I don't like blocking individual IP addresses because they change all the time, but in this case we have little choice. We'll see what happens next. Hopefully no innocent bystanders have been affected. Ahasuerus 11:15, 6 November 2017 (EST)

Can you set an expiry on the blocks? If so, you could set it for a few days or a week to block what's happening now. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:41, 6 November 2017 (EST)

There are tools that can modify lists of banned IP addresses dynamically. As far as I can tell, they take a certain amount of time to configure and monitor. If things deteriorate, we may have to give them a try. Ahasuerus 20:01, 6 November 2017 (EST)

series: Broken Empire vs. Broken Empire Universe

The short fiction collected in the first edition of Mark Lawrence's Road Brothers was all assigned to his Broken Empire series. The latest edition, containing four additional stories, has been placed more generally in the Broken Empire Universe. Are there any Lawrence readers here who would care to figure out where exactly the various short fiction belongs? --Vasha 01:44, 7 November 2017 (EST)

I seem to be the sole verifier of Lawrence's magnificent series, but I don't read e-books. So when I get the new hardcover collection, I'll take a shot at organization. My first thought is that "Broken Empire Universe" should be renamed "Broken Empire" and the sub-series should be changed from "Broken Empire" to "Game of Thorns" or some such. If the stories involve Jorg Ancrath or activities related to him, they belong in the sub-series, otherwise in the overall series. More when I read the new collection. Bob 12:11, 8 November 2017 (EST)

Advanced Search changes - 2017-11-10

Advanced Search has been further modified to display drop-down lists of valid values when specifying title types, publication types and title lengths. The 4 title flags (juvenile, non-genre, etc) are still outstanding. Ahasuerus 18:20, 10 November 2017 (EST)

Dav%Stevenson

Would anyone happen to know if Dave Stevenson, David Stevenson and David G. Stevenson are the same artist? Ahasuerus 16:24, 11 November 2017 (EST)

SFE3 seems to think the first and the second are the same, but I wouldn't be surprised when more than one artist lives under these three names, given the difference in technique between this David Stevenson (SFE3) and this David Stevenson (www.david-stevenson.com).--Dirk P Broer 18:36, 13 November 2017 (EST)

1st/2nd most likely [Pocket books connection] and the styles are the same. --~ Bill, Bluesman 18:40, 13 November 2017 (EST)

2017-11-12 downtime

The Web server was down between 5:54am and 9:05am due to technical problem. Everything should be back up now. Ahasuerus 09:09, 12 November 2017 (EST)

Nominating user Hitspacebar for moderator

See Moderator Qualifications#Becoming a moderator for the nomination process.

I would like to nominate user Hitspacebar (talk • contribs) for moderator. Right from the beginning he had a steep learning curve that has enabled him to manage most types of submissions. Also he has offered help for and done many betterments for all kinds of structural or informational changes, including software. So I think he meets the Moderator Qualifications and he has accepted the nomination. Stonecreek 10:59, 12 November 2017 (EST)

Support

1. Support, as nominator. Stonecreek 10:59, 12 November 2017 (EST)
2. Support. I was thinking the same thing myself earlier this month. Ahasuerus 11:02, 12 November 2017 (EST)
3. Support. -- JLaTondre (talk) 11:39, 12 November 2017 (EST)
4. Support. --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 13:09, 12 November 2017 (EST)
5. Support. Deserved. Rudolf Rudam 13:11, 14 November 2017 (EST)
6. Support. I don't think I handled many of his submissions, but looking at his talk page/contributions I see no issues/problems. --Willem 15:19, 14 November 2017 (EST)
7. Support. Albinoflea 12:56, 16 November 2017 (EST)
8. Support. Always good submissions, covering a variety of areas and complexity. --MartyD 20:06, 16 November 2017 (EST)
9. Support. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:10, 16 November 2017 (EST)

Oppose

Comments/ Neutral

1. I can't recall ever handling a single edit, so should remain neutral. Good luck! --~ Bill, Bluesman 18:36, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Outcome

The nomination passes. The moderator flag has been set. Congratulations! Ahasuerus 11:04, 17 November 2017 (EST)

Fantastic. Thanks a lot for the support and the trust in my capabilities. Jens Hitspacebar 12:25, 17 November 2017 (EST)

OMNI Magazine back in print

OMNI Magazine is back in print.[1] Should the new issue be added to the old Omni Magazine series ? --Auric 12:43, 12 November 2017 (EST)

There is certainly precedent, e.g. we list the two runs of Super Science Stories / Super Science Novels (1940-1943 and 1949-1951) and the many incarnations of Weird Tales as single series. Ahasuerus 00:21, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Okay, thanks.--Auric 10:38, 17 November 2017 (EST)

Advanced Search changes - 2017-11-13

The 4 title flags (juvenile etc) and title languages have been converted to drop-down lists. In addition, Advanced Search should no longer error out with a Python error when processing complex OR searches. Ahasuerus 00:16, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Authors' working languages have been converted as well, which I believe wraps up this FR. Ahasuerus 00:36, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Mouseover help changes

Based on a recent discussion, all mouseover bubbles displayed on bibliographic pages have been changed to somewhat fancy question marks. This includes all bubbles with transliterated values as well as publication format codes -- e.g., see this page. Mouseover bubbles displayed on edit pages haven't been changed.

Let's see if this change makes the bubbles less intrusive and addresses the initial concern.

P.S. The newly added "fancy question marks" became an internet standard in 2010, so hopefully everyone's browsers are able to display them in 2017. If not, we may have to use plain vanilla question marks instead. Ahasuerus 18:08, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Are they supposed to look like very miniscule rectangles? If so then they're displaying fine. Certainly less intrusive. But if we have to go 'plain', I prefer strawberry ..... --~ Bill, Bluesman 18:34, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Do the minuscule rectangles look like miniaturized versions of the huge black-and-white rectangle on this Wikipedia page? If so, then your browser doesn't recognize the "fancy question marks" added in the 2010 standard and reverts to a generic "replacement character". Perhaps it's not such a bad thing after all since these "replacement" rectangles have a question mark embedded. Ahasuerus 18:51, 13 November 2017 (EST)

No, just a blank rectangle maybe 1mmx3mm , sort of [] this but a little smaller and <sup>. It's 'quiet'. --~ Bill, Bluesman 23:20, 13 November 2017 (EST)

That's ... odd. Oh well, so much for fancy question marks and quirky browsers! I have changed it to a plain vanilla question mark (surely vanilla > strawberry?), so hopefully things should look better now. Ahasuerus 16:09, 14 November 2017 (EST)

I didn't mind the wee rectangles [or the vanilla ?], much easier on the eyes. --~ Bill, Bluesman 23:27, 14 November 2017 (EST)

Nominating user Dirk P Broer for moderator

See Moderator Qualifications#Becoming a moderator for the nomination process.

I would like to nominate user Dirk_P_Broer (talk • contribs) for moderator. For several years now he has been a considerable source of bibliographical updates, finding mistakes and omissions. In his huge amount of submissions he bettered many entries, and also found useful information about authors and etablished overlooked pseudonyms. He obviously also knows about the intricacies ISFDB has in store for the user. I think he meets the Moderator Qualifications and he has accepted the nomination. Stonecreek 09:12, 14 November 2017 (EST)

Support

1. Support, as nominator. Stonecreek 09:12, 14 November 2017 (EST)
2. Support. Long overdue. Rudolf Rudam 13:12, 14 November 2017 (EST)
3. Support. I think he would do a good job. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 14:25, 14 November 2017 (EST)
4. Support. The first nomination came too soon and the second stranded in miscommunication. The third time may be a little late, but is well deserved. --Willem 15:26, 14 November 2017 (EST)
5. Support. He's been ready for quite some time. --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 20:47, 14 November 2017 (EST)
6. Support. One suggestion: when adding notes to records, "As of 2017" is a better choice than "Now" or "Currently". Try to put yourself in the shoes of a "naive" 14-year-old user examining our records in 2031 to see if they will still make sense to her :-) Ahasuerus 21:25, 14 November 2017 (EST)
7. Support. I think he would do a good job, and I'd like to see more moderators. Bob 11:54, 15 November 2017 (EST)
8. Support. Albinoflea 12:56, 16 November 2017 (EST)
9. Support. My thoughts haven't changed. This is long overdue. --MartyD 20:11, 16 November 2017 (EST)

Oppose

1. I don't see any fundamental change from the first nomination. --~ Bill, Bluesman 23:29, 14 November 2017 (EST)

Comments/ Neutral

Outcome

The nomination was successful. The moderator flag has been set on the account. Congratulations! Ahasuerus 23:52, 20 November 2017 (EST)

Joe Hill's Graphic Novels

I'm holding several submissions of graphic novels by Joe Hill. In addition, this author already has about 8 graphic novel works entered in the database. Per our standards, ISFDB does not index graphic novels, comics, etc. We have made exceptions (though not stated in policy) for high profile authors (ex. Neil Gaiman), but we've generally kept the threshold for this well above what we use for non-genre works. Hill doesn't seem to fit this level in my opinion. However, we're now up to about 400 graphic works[2] in the database and many are not by significant genre authors (ex. single story). So:

1. Is it time to revisit the inclusion criteria?
2. Should we just reduce the exception level? Treat it more like non-genre? Include anything in an otherwise genre publication?
3. Accept these submissions w/o addressing the above two?
4. Deny these edits and delete Hill's other graphic works?

What are people's thoughts? -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2017 (EST)

Excellent questions. I don't have many answers, but I'll make a couple of observations:

• Graphic novels have been growing by leaps and bounds as of late. Many popular SF series have graphic offshoots. Some of them are adapted by the original author while others are apparently done by a third party with some guidance by the creator of the universe.
• Although I still tend to think of Joe Hill as a new kid on the block, he has won a dozen (!) major awards and has another couple of dozen nominations under his belt.

Ahasuerus 18:28, 15 November 2017 (EST)

A few thoughts only. I read a lot of graphic novels (well.. I buy them and shelf them anyway...) and I still think that if we open the door for them here, we are going to double the scope of the project. Which is not a problem on its own - except that we have major gaps in the text-based fiction. And if we start with the graphic ones, we need to start asking of radio-plays and movies based on stories and novels also belong (how is a graphic novel different from a radio-play adaptation?) and we will end up somewhere down the rabbit hole. So as much as I like them, I do not think that we should have any graphic novels - major authors or not. But that ship had sailed. So at this point, I would say to treat them as non-fiction - if we would add a non-fiction book by the author, we add their graphic novels as well; if we won't, we don't. That would make the Hill ones eligible. Annie 18:40, 15 November 2017 (EST)

My opinions are similar to Annie's: generally I'm not for including them, but, alas, they have crept in. I don't see much choice as to allow them for above-the-threhold authors, as we try to capture all of their works. There is a difference to radio plays and movies, though, as they usually are authored by genre authors, whereas the former mostly are 'adapted from' their work (at least that's the way for the modern comics / graphic novels as Joe Hill's). To treat them as non-fiction would be the best way to handle them, but maybe a new category 'non-fiction graphic' would be appropriate? It also seems that Joe Hill is becoming above-the-threhold. Stonecreek 23:24, 15 November 2017 (EST)

I find it a bit ironic that the only feedback has been from those opposed to graphic novels, but recommending their inclusion. ;-) I have accepted the edits. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:19, 19 November 2017 (EST)

My 2¢: To me, most graphic novels seem to be long comic books with better binding. Many are reprinted comic books originally done in parts, or arcs. Unless we want to be another Grand Comics Database, I would disallow them. 500 existing GN's doesn't seem that many to delete. Some cases might be arguable, but that's what we do sometimes. Anyway, my vote is get rid of them all (and I'm guilty of entering a couple myself!) Doug / vornoff Vornoff 14:25, 25 November 2017 (EST)

Many novels have a critical graphic component. Do we start ignoring works because they have too many graphics? IMHO, you can exclude manga, comic books, and reprints of comic book in better bindings without ignoring graphic novels. It would be more reasonable to specifically exclude periodically printed comics and their reprints, than to create an arbitrary graphics to words ratio. Limiting to author's above the threshold seems a reasonable constraint as well. TAWeiss 10:30, 26 November 2017 (EST)

This is not a compelling argument. There is a significant difference between an illustrated novel and a graphic novel. And for the relatively very, very few works that straddle the border, it's no different than the genre / non-genre border (make a case by case decision with an leaning towards inclusion) which is a far, far more common issue that we handle fine. -- JLaTondre (talk) 07:37, 27 November 2017 (EST)

Careful with the "published as individual issues first" as well - more and more graphic novels get split and published in chapters before they get collected in a single book - without them being real comics issues. It is a very slippery slope and finding where the border betwen a GN and comics series is may not be as trivial. Annie 11:21, 27 November 2017 (EST)

I could live with something like that, with the exclusions you mention. I did mention some cases would be arguable. Just what is a graphic novel, then, anyway? Just a work that looks like a comic book but hasn't been printed before as a comic book? Or would there be some other criteria for inclusion? The Dark Knight Returns, for example, looks like it would be out for me. It was compiled from four comics issues and Miller doesn't look like he's over the threshold. If we left it in, shouldn't we enter the four comics and the other reprints of this work as well? On the other hand Coraline by Neil Gaiman, I would leave in. A cursory look seems like it was from his novella of the same name, plus he would definitely be over the threshold. No doubt it would be work to delete the comic book-y titles but as long as the editors were aware of this new direction, if agreed upon, they would get deleted over time by various editors/moderators as they come across them. No doubt this could open a can of worms; I can see where some verifiers might get bent out of shape if their entries were chosen for deletion so obviously, thought would have to be put into the decision to move ahead or not. Doug / Vornoff 00:24, 27 November 2017 (EST)

As well as Dark Knight, would Watchmen, V for Vendetta, From Hell, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen go as Alan Moore isn't that well known outside of comics? (Though the League GNs also have text stories. Would we add those stories separately?) Would books on art of comics and GN go as well? Mythology: The DC Comics Art of Alex Ross.

Title merge enhancements

As per FR 1095, Title Merge has been changed to ignore author order. For example, when merging two titles co-written by Niven, Barnes and Pournelle, the display logic will show Author values as identical regardless of the order in which they appear in the database. Ahasuerus 13:22, 16 November 2017 (EST)

Thank you! -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:34, 16 November 2017 (EST)

Sure thing! Unfortunately, FR 1096 is trickier to implement, in part due to the fact that a Title Merge submission can merge titles with different title types. Ahasuerus 18:21, 16 November 2017 (EST)

Award year validation

As per FR 1084, award year validation has been enhanced to disallow award years with months and/or days. Ahasuerus 16:30, 16 November 2017 (EST)

Family Name -> Directory Entry

As per Roadmap 2017, the field formerly known as "Family Name" has been changed to "Directory Entry". Please let me know if I missed anything. Ahasuerus 19:38, 16 November 2017 (EST)

Po-up validation enhancements

The error message which used to read:

• For new/added publications the reference title should not be entered in the Content section. It will be added automatically at submission creation time.

has been fine-tuned. Here is what it looks like for magazines and fanzines:

• When creating a new MAGAZINE publication, an EDITOR title should not be entered in the Regular Titles subsection of the Content section. It will be added automatically at submission creation time.

and for omnibuses:

• When creating a new OMNIBUS publication, an OMNIBUS title should not be entered in the Regular Titles subsection of the Content section. It will be added automatically at submission creation time.

Ahasuerus 10:14, 17 November 2017 (EST)

Those are good. --Vasha 15:50, 17 November 2017 (EST)

Catalog IDs: support for multiple IDs per publication?

One of the enhancements that Roadmap 2017 calls for is adding support for multiple ISBNs per publication. The primary prerequisite is separating ISBNs and Catalog IDs which currently share the same field.

Here is what the road map currently says about Catalog IDs:

• Move catalog IDs to a separate field, which will help with pubs that have both an ISBN and a catalog ID, e.g. book club publications.

As stated, it would be a reasonably straightforward change. I have already finalized the design document.

However, it occurs to me that it's possible for a publication to have multiple catalog IDs. An Advanced Publication Search on "ISBN/Catalog # starts with #%/" finds approximately 150 publication records, many of them published in Germany and Poland, although some of them appear to contain legitimate slashes. I also recall certain older (1960s) American paperbacks which had what looked like 2 different catalog IDs, but I never looked into it.

It's certainly possible to make "Catalog ID" a multiply occurring field similar to Authors, Transliterated Titles, etc. It will take more time to code, but, once finished, it should have no impact on performance or anything else. The question then is whether, based on everyone's experience with catalog IDs, it is worth doing. Thoughts? Ahasuerus 15:55, 17 November 2017 (EST)

I guess we'll go with a single-value field. Ahasuerus 00:01, 24 November 2017 (EST)

Poe's detective stories

Why are "The Mystery of Marie Roget" and "The Purloined Letter" not marked as non-genre (though "The Gold-Bug"is)? --Vasha 02:06, 19 November 2017 (EST)

Because noone had got around to it yet? :) Annie 17:03, 20 November 2017 (EST)

If no one objects, I will make the change a few days from now. --Vasha 19:18, 20 November 2017 (EST)

Sometimes the quality of our data for some of the best known stories is not very high. Many of them were entered early on, in the 1990s, which is to say before we had moderation, the "nongenre" flag, etc. Ahasuerus 19:22, 20 November 2017 (EST)

Would we consider Poe "above the threshold"? He's certainly one of the most well known authors in the world. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:14, 20 November 2017 (EST)

I would say that the creators of the genre are in this group automatically. When you think of Poe, do you think of him as a genre writer or as a crime writer? That's what this whole threshold is all about (when we stop counting the stories and whatnot) - is it a genre writer that sometimes works outside of it or a non-genre one with a few works that fit here. Annie 21:23, 20 November 2017 (EST)

(after edit conflict)

The Rules of Acquisition say:

• The goal here is to avoid cataloging everything ever published by James Fenimore Cooper, Robert Louis Stevenson, Honoré de Balzac and other popular authors.

In other words, the "threshold" was designed to exclude some of the most well known authors in the world :-)

However, that's because most of their works are not SF. Poe is arguably different since many of his works are speculative. I am not sure what the percentage is, though. Ahasuerus 21:28, 20 November 2017 (EST)

As a matter of fact, a few of Poe's very well known stories aren't speculative per se, for example "The Pit and the Pendulum" (and "The Murders in the Rue Morgue," unrealistic orangutan notwithstanding). Nonetheless, they are among the founding texts of the horror and fantastic genres, and so they do, in my opinion, count as "genre" -- something that is as much a matter of context as content. "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" is reprinted in horror anthologies whereas the other Dupin stories aren't, so it's the only "genre" story in the series.

It isn't even necessary to take context into account to realize that the great majority of Poe's fiction is speculative. --Vasha 22:04, 20 November 2017 (EST)

Which is why I said "the creators of the genre" (should have been genres :) ). It is not about popularity, it is about the genre works :) Poe is in a different category because he is not just a popular author, he is one of our popular authors. I do not know - for an author that I know and had read, it is very easy to see if they should be above or bellow... I have a feeling we all are on the same page here :) Annie 22:24, 20 November 2017 (EST)

NOMMO awards?

Earlier today I saw a new SF award, the Nommo Awards for African Speculative Fiction, given by the African Speculative Fiction Society. I am not familiar with this recently formed organization, but Locus and Orbit seem to think that they are legitimate. Should we add them? Ahasuerus 15:29, 20 November 2017 (EST)

I'd say "yes". Annie 15:46, 20 November 2017 (EST)

I entered most of the shortlist as title notes a few days ago based on this tor.com article (which lists the winners whereas the organization's website hasn't been updated yet). There were a few short stories that I wasn't able to find much information about if anyone wants to do some digging. If this is added as a supported award, the title notes should be removed when converted to awards. -- JLaTondre (talk) 16:44, 20 November 2017 (EST)

OK, a new award type has been created. Moderators should be able to create new categories. Ahasuerus 20:36, 23 November 2017 (EST)

I've entered the short list. They also have a long list from which we're missing a lot of content if anyone has time to dig into it. -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:46, 24 November 2017 (EST)

Arthur Conan Doyle "above the threshold"?

A number of people in this community believe that the Sherlock Holmes stories belong in this database because, although they're not speculative, they've been thoroughly incorporated into a speculative metaverse that numerous writers draw on. Personally, I have no objection to that idea. But I'm wondering, should Doyle's other non-speculative fiction be catalogued wherever it occurs--is he "above the threshold"? On the one hand, his speculative fiction is percentagewise a small portion of his output; on the other hand, he did give us Professor Challenger and a few extremely popular supernatural stories such as "The Captain of the Polestar," "The Great Keinplatz Experiment," and "The Horror of the Heights." H. G. Wells is proof that an author can be above the threshold even if a minority of their writing is speculative. So what do you folks think? Here are some numbers about Doyle to help you decide:

• NOVELS. Speculative (5) Holmes (4) Other (10)
• SHORT FICTION Speculative (39) Holmes (56) Other (120)

--Vasha 22:22, 20 November 2017 (EST)

I am going to play the rebel today - under the threshold with an exception for anything Doyle's Holmes related (aka adopt Holmes into our cannon as non-genre because of the influence)). That opens the door to ask if modern Holmes stories belong here (and I would say - "no" unless they qualify on their own)... Annie 22:28, 20 November 2017 (EST)

Maurice Level -- how do we decide what's genre?

Maurice Level is a (fairly) renowned horror writer. As such, he has lots of stories in this database. However, his stories are strictly non-speculative, preferring what one commentator calls a "brutal naturalism". He writes of desperate people, sick & twisted people, gruesome scenes, horrible murders, and cruel ironies. Even his famous novel L'ombre/Those Who Return is a tale of madness that's only ambiguously supernatural, and it's his only work I know of that includes such hints.

So, I'm confused about how to decide which of Level's writings are "genre". Should we say that none of them are except Those Who Return? But some of the stories have been reprinted places like Weird Tales; does everything in Weird Tales automatically become genre? Or how about genre anthologies that contain both supernatural and non-supernatural horror, does appearing in one, several, or a dozen of those mean that a story should not be marked non-genre?

Yours uncertainly, --Vasha 15:41, 23 November 2017 (EST)

I think it's important to distinguish between two separate issues when evaluating a story/novel:

• Is the work speculative fiction based on our definition of speculative fiction?
• Does the work appear in a publication all of whose contents we would normally catalog, e.g. a genre magazine like Weird Tales?

If the answer to the first question is "yes" or "ambiguous", then we consider the story "genre". If the answer is "no", then we consider it non-genre.

If the answer to the second question is "yes", then we will include the story even if it is non-genre. However, the fact that we include it in the Content section of a Weird Tales issue doesn't automatically mean that we will list all of its appearances in other publications.

In the case of Maurice Level, L'ombre is presumably a genre work since it contains ambiguous speculative elements. On the other hand, his works of psychological horror are non-genre because our current definition of SF explicitly excludes "Purely psychological horror works that feature no supernatural or fantastical elements ". Ahasuerus 16:04, 23 November 2017 (EST)

OK, I've marked everything NG except L'ombre and the underground-city novel La cité des voleurs. (I forgot about that one because it hasn't been translated into English. I bet Black Coat Press is going to get to it soon.) --Vasha 17:31, 23 November 2017 (EST)

Step-by-step guide for entering translation added to help

Kurst had suggested a step-by-step guide a week ago about how to enter translations (see the howto's talk page). I have now added this guide with several corrections and additions by me to the Help:How_to_enter_translations page. Jens Hitspacebar 13:12, 24 November 2017 (EST)

Washington Irving's fiction

It seems to me that Washinton Irving is above the threshold--true, his books largely consist of travelogues and sketches, with a few tales thrown in, making speculative fiction very much a minority. But if you look at just his fiction then it's a majority. I've identified about 45 stories, of which 25 (including his most famous ones) are speculative. So I'm wondering if all of his fiction should be entered into the database. It wouldn't be hard; collections they would be in are already entered with partial contents. (Putting in all the nonfiction would be a lot more work and I don't personally feel like doing it.) Thoughts?--Vasha 00:24, 27 November 2017 (EST)

2017-11-28: Duplicate authors bug fix

The other day Darrah discovered a way to create title/pub records with the same author listed 2+ times. The functionality is not supported by the software, which is why the bug was causing display issues and even Python errors. The software has been fixed and I am currently in the process of correcting the affected records. If you see anything unusual, please let me know. Ahasuerus 17:07, 28 November 2017 (EST)

The data has been fixed. Ahasuerus 18:54, 28 November 2017 (EST)

Robert E. Howard Books in Foreign Languages

I'm going to start entering Howard books in a number of foreign languages, using HowardWorks.com as the source. I've asked for and received permission from Bill Thom, who runs the site, to use his scans for the covers. Is there something else I need to do to use these scans? Bob 00:32, 30 November 2017 (EST)

I have added Howard Works to Template:Image Host Sites. Give me an hour or so to update the software and then we should be good to go. Ahasuerus 10:44, 30 November 2017 (EST)

Done. Submit away! Ahasuerus 10:58, 30 November 2017 (EST)

Conan Universe Organization

There are three types of Conan stories: (1) those by Robert E. Howard, (2) those by REH and coauthors and (3) pastiches. Currently, the “Conan Universe” has subseries “Conan” and “Conan Pastiches”. The “Conan” subseries has one further subseries “Conan of Cimmeria”. These are “pure” Howard, no coauthors. Another important series was first published by Lancer, all of which are anthologies, with stories coauthored by L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter. There are numerous copies of these pubs in foreign languages and omnibus editions of multiple volumes in that series. The other prominent series was published by Gnome Press. Some volumes in that series are “pure” Howard, most are anthologies with stories coauthored with L. Sprague de Camp, the series editor. There are also some very large collections/anthologies (over 600 pages), most quite recent print on demand pubs.

I’d like to bring some order to the “Conan Universe”. Maybe something like

Conan Universe: "Robert E. Howard’s Conan", sub "The Complete Conan of Cimmeria"; "Coauthored Conan", sub "The Lancer Conans" and sub "Massive Conan Anthologies" (over 600 pages); and of course, "Conan Pastiches".

I’d like suggestions on how the “Conan Universe” might be organized. Bob 20:52, 4 December 2017 (EST)

We've currently got the Lancer/Ace, Gnome, Berkely, Sphere and Grant issues of the books as publication series and I think that is where they belong. If you try to make them into title series, you'll run into problems of how to treat the same title which appears in multiple title series (which can't be done with the existing software). For example Conan the Conqueror/The Hour of the Dragon is #5 in the Gnome series, #9 in Lancer/Ace, #1 in Berkley, #4 in Sphere and #11 in Grant. There really isn't a canonical ordering of the stories that I'm aware of. Even with the the organization that you describe, I believe you'll end up with anthologies that are a mixture of stories by Howard collected with those by other hands. You could certainly organize the stories as you suggest, but I think the books present a problem. --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 22:00, 4 December 2017 (EST)

Thanks for the input, Ron. I agree that "Conan the Conquerer"/"The Hour of the Dragon" is a problem. I think it's the only one because it's the only Conan novel Howard wrote (all Howard). The thing that kicked this off was the discovery of so many foreign language versions of the Lancer/Ace series. None of the other series seemed to generate this sort of interest. And there are too many pubs titled "Conan" and "Conan the Barbarian" that are completely unrelated. I'd just like to find some sort of organization. Bob 00:30, 5 December 2017 (EST)

Attention: Another Amazon Alarm!

Recently happened (or came to light) what maybe was to be expected: a link to a cover image supplied via an amazon link had suddenly a different image (one for a more actual printing).

To reconstruct the history: upon verifying, the image for this had been there, so I missed out on uploading a cover scan (but that I did just a few moments ago). The displayed / changed image can be seen when clicking on the DNB link supplied as External ID (the image is false for all three publications displayed at DNB). So it's quite obvious that amazon (as DNB) displays one image per ISBN / EAN: our amazon-displayed images WILL CHANGE as soon as amazon replaces the old version with a new one! Stonecreek 10:04, 5 December 2017 (EST)

That's kind of normal - Amazon changes their covers a lot for books that are in print - sometimes it is because of a new printing, sometimes it seems to be just on general principle (LibraryThing (my other playground:) ) has a similar system as ours for linking to local covers or Amazon covers and the reported issues with the Amazon ones are almost a daily occurrence). Annie 11:25, 5 December 2017 (EST)

Book Id Request

i'm looking for an entire book series which i cannot find. the titles of each of the books in the series are years that are crucial in world history, and the main character i believe time travels from a contemporary point in history, to one of these particular years. i found this series randomly on an application like two or so years ago. i didn't even download any of the books, but now i'm really curious to read them because they sounded really fun.

unfortunately too, i can't remember what the years were in history, or what years they covered.

they seem to be recent, and i believe the books were done as ebooks due to maybe lack of being big publications?

i don't necessarily know how they would be classified, they're time travel / historical fiction.

tomes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kallistar (talk • contribs) .

Sorry, but I have no idea what this series may be. A quick search for five various important years came up with nothing. Stonecreek 11:59, 10 December 2017 (EST)

The best known time travel series whose titles contain years is probably Eric Flint's 163x: 1632, 1633, 1634: The Galileo Affair, etc. However, it's about a town in West Virginia getting sent back in time, so the plot is a very different.

On the other hand, Bob Mayer's recent (and apparently self-published) Area 51: Time Patrol is about time travelers going back to certain crucial points in the past, but the titles are different. Ahasuerus 14:03, 10 December 2017 (EST)

2017-12-15 server downtime

The ISFDB server will be unavailable due to patch installation starting at 8:30pm server time. I expect the downtime to take less than 10 minutes.

The patch will add a "Catalog ID" field to publication records. All ISBN/catalog ID values starting with a "#" sign will be automatically moved to the new field. Various and sundry cleanup reports, search pages, Help bubbles, etc will be updated to reflect the new functionality at the same time. I will update Help once the dust settles. Ahasuerus 20:05, 15 December 2017 (EST)

Everything should be back up. If you encounter any issues, please let me know. Ahasuerus 20:38, 15 December 2017 (EST)

Help has been updated and clarified. Ahasuerus 21:16, 15 December 2017 (EST)

Saw a warning that the ISBN/Catalogue was missing when it wasn't. See this pub. Doug H 21:41, 11 January 2018 (EST)

The link takes me to Lin Carter's "Foreword (The Land That Time Forgot)". Could you please list the editing steps that resulted in the warning message? Are you able to recreate them? Ahasuerus 22:51, 11 January 2018 (EST)

What to enter in the Catalog ID field

Checked the 'Help" and didn't notice anything specifically applying to the new field. Then again there are so many pages I probably missed the relevant one ... ? --~ Bill, Bluesman 23:46, 15 December 2017 (EST)

Here is the rewritten template for ISBNs: Template:PublicationFields:ISBN. The template for the "Catalog ID" field (Template:PublicationFields:CatalogID) is brand new and doesn't have much information yet. Once we sort out various issues like the ones that you raise below, we can update it with the results of the discussion. Ahasuerus 12:54, 16 December 2017 (EST)

Since there are now two fields would it be prudent to split the ISBN/Catalog# column in two? I ask because there are possibly a multitude of cases where there can be both on a given edition [think about Berkley printings from the early 70s where there was almost universally a letter-4 digit number on the cover but an SBN/ISBN on the copyright page; Bantam is another prime example as well as DAW]. I'm thinking we probably assumed it would be one or the other, though I see the software is set up for the 'pairing' potential and puts ISBN/Catalog# just like that with the '/' between. --~ Bill, Bluesman 23:46, 15 December 2017 (EST)

That's right. If a publication has both an ISBN and a Catalog ID, they are both displayed in the "ISBN/Catalog ID" field with a slash separating them. Granted, we could create a separate column for Catalog IDs, but it would be empty most of the time while still taking up valuable "real estate" on the Web page. From the software development standpoint, it would be a minor change, so we can do it either way depending on what the consensus is. Ahasuerus 13:00, 16 December 2017 (EST)

In line with that probable assumption, I can see a situation/use of the new field that I hope we can forestall/eliminate before it happens. Incorporated in every ISBN is a catalog # [just remove the language/publisher prefixes and the checksum] but I think we should plainly state in the Help that that is NOT what the field is for, otherwise it will be an endless partial repetition for no real purpose. Also, there are publishers that had numbers on the covers that had NO relation to the ISBNs at all [hundreds of Avon printings for example]. We really have no way of proving that they are indeed catalog #s but the new field seems a perfect place for them [some Avon printings actually had two ISBNS on the spine, one 'real' and one incorporating the number on the cover ... so go figure ...]. A perfect example is the edition I just added this evening, [here], with the publication page now looking like [this]. Tried as an experiment to see how the display works. Just throwing these notions out there, no real preferences yet [other than completely stopping any over-eager editor/mod from dissecting every ISBN just to put part of it into the new field]. I do think that any letter-number combinations, even where there are ISBNs, are a perfect fit for the new field. Might eliminate/simplify quite a few notes as well. --~ Bill, Bluesman 23:46, 15 December 2017 (EST)

Bill's Avon example is exactly what I had in mind when I was implementing this enhancement.

Similarly, here is an SFBC pub which I tweaked a few minutes ago by copying the SFBC ID from the Note field to the Catalog ID field. We may want to create a new cleanup report to find all SFBC publications with an ISBN and no catalog ID.

As far as the issue of ISBN/Catalog ID duplication goes, there may be 2 different scenarios here. The first one is more common: a book has an ISBN and no stated catalog ID. I agree that we shouldn't be trying to extract the publisher's ID from the ISBN.

However, let's consider the second scenario. Back in the early-mid 1970s paperback publishers took their time transitioning from raw catalog IDs to ISBNs. Some used "SBNs", i.e. ISBN without a leading 0. Some printed both their catalog ID and the ISBN: sometimes on the cover, sometimes on the spine, sometimes on the copyright page. Some ISFDB editors capture this information in notes, but sometimes what we have is inconclusive. For example, consider this van Vogt pub. Our publication record includes the book's ISBN (0-441-25980-4), but if you examine the cover, only the publisher's catalog ID is visible. Perhaps the full ISBN is stated on the spine or on the copyright page, but it's also possible that the ISBN was derived from the catalog ID. This is uncommon -- see this list of Ace books published in 1973 -- but we'll need to decide how to handle this type of cases. Ahasuerus 19:52, 16 December 2017 (EST)

New cleanup repor: invalid BNF IDs

As previously discussed, BNF changed its URL format a few months ago. 427 ISFDB records were affected by this change. Most of them have been fixed manually, but 36 remain outstanding. I have coded and deployed a new cleanup report, Publications with invalid BNF identifiers, to help find them. The data will become available around 1:20am ISFDB time. Ahasuerus 17:26, 17 December 2017 (EST)

Fixed them. --Zapp 14:33, 18 December 2017 (EST)

New cleanup report: SFBC publications with an ISBN and no Catalog ID

As per this discussion, a new cleanup report, "SFBC publications with an ISBN and no Catalog ID", has been coded and deployed. The data, approximately 1,070 records, will become available tomorrow morning. Moderators will be able to "ignore" publications which legitimately lack a catalog ID. Ahasuerus 18:25, 17 December 2017 (EST)

So can we rename the report from "SFDB Publications with an ISBN and no Catalog ID" to "SFBC Publications with an ISBN and no Catalog ID"? :) I had been looking at the report this weekend and had no idea what it was all about and took me awhile to figure out the typo (or 2)... Thanks! Annie 19:54, 26 March 2018 (EDT)

Oops! Thanks for reporting the bug -- it should be dead and buried now. Ahasuerus 08:58, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Robert Louis Stevenson--delete Non-genre?

Someone went to a lot of trouble adding Robert Louis Stevenson's poems and nonfiction to the database, and I rather wish they hadn't. Despite the great fame of Stevenson's speculative fiction, there sure isn't much of it--two novels, nine short stories, and a collection of fables over the course of a 40-year career (eleven other novels and much else). You can see the whole of his works here. Does it really make sense to have all this in the database? --Vasha 04:26, 18 December 2017 (EST)

There is a fair amount of history here. Robert Louis Stevenson was an early victim of our first robot. The robot went out, interrogated a number of online catalogs and came back with hundreds of ISBNs, which were merrily added to our database. It happened back in the early 2000s when we were yet to grasp the implications of entering robotically generated data into the database.

Once the current moderation system was implemented in 2006, we went back and deleted RLS's book-length non-genre titles. Some of his non-genre short fiction is still in the database, in part because many collections of RLS's stories contain both his SF and his non-SF. Also, some stories are not really speculative, but contain macabre elements, e.g. the Prince Florizel series.

We may want to start by setting the non-genre flag as appropriate. Once that has been done, we will be in a better position to judge what (if anything) we want to delete. Ahasuerus 12:08, 18 December 2017 (EST)

That is done. Here's a summary of everything I think is genre-relevant:

• Novels: Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and The Master of Ballantrae
• New Arabian Nights/Prince Florizel: "The Suicide Club," "The Rajah's Diamond," and The Dynamiter
• Short fiction: "Will o' the Mill," "Thrawn Janet," "The Body Snatcher," "Markheim," "Olalla," "The Bottle Imp," "The Isle of Voices," "The Tale of Tod Lapraik," "The Waif-Woman," "The Plague-Cellar," and fourteen fables
• Poems: the ballads "Ticonderoga" and "Heather Ale"
• Essays: "A Gossip on Romance" (defense of fanciful fiction), "A Chapter on Dreams" (discussion of the psychological themes in Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde), and correspondence about Dr.Jekyll

--Vasha 13:15, 19 December 2017 (EST)

Nicely done, thanks! My thinking is that the next step would be to examine each collection/omnibus to determine whether it's primarily non-genre. For example, The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and Related Poems contains The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, an SF novel, and 21 non-genre poems. The title of the publication suggests that the poems are related to The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, but I am not sure what the nature of the relationship is. We should probably check with User:Rtrace, who OCLC-verified this pub in 2010, to see what he knows about the pub. If he agrees that the poems are not directly related to the novel, we could remove them from the book and delete any orphans. Rinse and repeat :) Ahasuerus 14:34, 19 December 2017 (EST)

I have no special knowledge about that collection. I suspect that I added the contents because they were detailed in the Worldcat listing. Absent evidence to the contrary, I would give credence to the title as to the inclusion of the poems. As an inclusionist, I'd rather we err on the side of inclusion even if that lets a few non-genre works in as opposed to mistakenly delete a work that should be here. --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 21:10, 19 December 2017 (EST)

You can read all of those poems online and convince yourself that they have no apparent speculative content and no obvious connection to the novel. Unless someone can come up with a copy of the limited-edition book, what the editor had in mind will remain unclear. My feeling would be, since there is doubt, Mark them non-genre but don't delete them. --Vasha 23:08, 19 December 2017 (EST)

(Unindent; quoted from another discussion) I notice that the various editions of A Child's Garden of Verses have the following note "Contents entered are only those that may liberally be interpreted as speculative fiction (12 poems, all 7 publication records as of August 2017)." No indication of who said that.... I would have thought these poems weren't relevant to the database because we don't include writings for young children. And I don't see an indication that these poems have been reprinted in a clearly speculative context. --Vasha 17:14, 19 December 2017 (EST)

Where did you get the idea that works for young children aren't eligible for inclusion? We do have a specific exclusion for "Animal books for very young children", but that wouldn't apply here. Neither is there a requirement that eligible works be reprinted in a speculative context. I have no memory of writing that note and it doesn't sound like I would phrase it. Regardless, I'd vote for letting the poems stay. Some of the titles certainly sound speculative, e.g. "Fairy Bread", "The Land of Nod" and "The Unseen Playmate". --Ron ~ Rtrace^Talk 21:20, 19 December 2017 (EST)

It might be because we don't include picture books. Other than that, I'm not aware of any works for young children we don't include. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 13:24, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Okay then, those twelve poems are speculative. --Vasha 14:52, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Incidentally, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is 25,000 words long. I'm not seriously suggesting breaking the long tradition of calling it a novel... Just noting the fact.

Anyway, the Stevenson page has been tidied up a lot and I feel like it'll do for now. --Vasha 07:31, 21 December 2017 (EST)

Goodreads Awards

Goodreads is a Web site which has been increasingly prominent in the social cataloging space. They have been administering "Goodreads Choice Awards", which are voted on by their users, since 2009. In 2017 3,887,950 votes were cast, including over half a million votes for SF titles. Here are the relevant categories as of 2017:

• Best Fantasy
• Best Science Fiction
• Best Young Adult Fantasy & Science Fiction
• Best Horror
• Best Middle Grade & Children's

The last two categories also cover non-SF, but SF accounts for roughly 50% of their nominees/winners. The category structure has changed over the years and the number of nominees per category has fluctuated between 10 and 20, which is not uncommon.

Given Goodreads prominence -- global Alexa rank 324, US rank 170 -- I think we may want to add this award to our menagerie. Opinions? Ahasuerus 17:05, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Works for me. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:28, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Agreed. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:29, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Without objection, so ordered. Goodreads Choice Awards is now live. I have added the 2017 winners and at least one award/nomination per superseded category so that they wouldn't appear on our cleanup reports. Ahasuerus 15:50, 22 December 2017 (EST)

Goodreads awards have all been entered. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:49, 26 December 2017 (EST)

Great, thanks! Ahasuerus 18:57, 26 December 2017 (EST)

Updated the wiki page, too. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:11, 27 December 2017 (EST)

John Martin

While working on Fixer's latest catch, I noticed that our John Martin titles may be the work of multiple people. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the 1970s editor, the 1950s/1970s fiction author and 1970s/2010s illustrator are all different people. Would anyone happen to be familiar with the many faces of John Martin? Ahasuerus 15:06, 22 December 2017 (EST)

https://csul.iii.com/record=b41651439~S0 identifies the author of Sci-Fi Junior High as Martin, John, 1963-. I've e-mailed him to for thoughts on this thread. --Marc Kupper 02:59, 29 December 2017 (EST)

Question on Collection vs. Anthology; author vs. editor

The 1721 publication of "A Collection of Novels and Tales of the Fairies" by Comtesse d'Aulnoy is a historically important work, and not just because it's the first appearance of the term "Fairy Tale" in English, and the first appearance of Cinderella in English. So I'd like to get this right. Essentially all of the references, including almost all OCLC records and L.W. Currey list the author of this book as Countess d'Aulnoy (or some variation of that name). However, the 1721 edition includes 4 other stories by Henriette-Julie de Castelnau, Comtesse de Murat, which are uncredited to her, and are listed as if they were by Countess d'Aulnoy. I've credited those stories directly to de Murat, instead of "uncredited" and then aliased to her, just out of simplicity (with a note to that effect). I've listed this as a collection, partly because everybody else does, but also because two of the stories by Comtesse de Murat were incorporated into framing stories written by Comtesse d'Aulnoy, so it seems that it fits under the "collaboration" exception for Collections. (It seems very likely that de Murat was a regular member of d'Aulnoy salon, in which they focused on such fairy tales.) However, the 1728 edition and the 1737 edition (along with other later editions) include a 3rd volume that is also *implied* to be by Comtesse d'Aulnoy, is uncredited, and of which all but one of the stories are by Louise de Bossigny, Comtesse d'Auneuil (one other story remains anonymous). And none of *these* stories are in collaboration with the Comtesse d'Aulnoy, at least in the sense of the framing stories being used. So it seems that, regardless of Currey and most WorldCat records, we should credit this to all 3 authors and call it an Anthology. (Princeton's OCLC record does this.) Of course that means that I can't variant the 2nd and later editions to the first edition (which everyone else does). And if I list Comtesse d'Aulnoy as the "author" of these later printings (as everybody else does), then that implies that she was actually the editor. And it is almost certainly the case that she had *nothing* to do with the selection of stories for an English edition based on her works, so calling her an editor would seem to be wrong. So I'm stuck! Any recommendations? (Aside: This seems to me like it's more of a Help Desk question, but our Help Screen on this issue is very explicit that I should ask it here.) Chavey 14:59, 26 December 2017 (EST)

I ran into a problem like this with Charles Lindley/Lord Halifax and his collections of ghost stories. I had a great deal of discussion with the moderators at the time -- you may be able to search and find some of them. In Lord Halifax's Ghost Book, nothing had been published previously, and despite some semi-anecdotal credits to individual writers/contributors (see the pub notes), I credited everything directly to Charles Lindley and made the book a COLLECTION. But in Further Stories from Lord Halifax's Ghost Book, some had been published previously (by different authors), so I ended up keeping those author credits and making this book an ANTHOLOGY, and I made Charles Lindley the editor, even though it's apparent his son had some hand in the assembly of this book. See the pub notes there as well.

Your case is a little different. Technically, since those later editions have different content, you should not have them as variants of the first edition anyway. But in the absence of a mechanism to record derivative relationships, I'd be tempted to treat her as the (sole) editor and do the variants. --MartyD 07:39, 31 December 2017 (EST)

I think it would be fair to abandon doing what everyone else does and instead do what makes the real situation clearest. It does sound as if the later editions should be an anthology with uncredited editor. As for the 1721 edition -- is it a translation of a French edition with a framing story by Aulnoy? --Vasha 13:04, 31 December 2017 (EST)

Yes, the 1721 edition is a translation of a French edition, presumably the 1698 "Les contes des fées", which we do not yet have included. The framing stories are by d'Aulnoy, and were in the original edition. The earlier French edition had ONLY stories by d'Aulnoy, but the (unknown) English editor replaced 4 of those stories with stories by Murat. I am unclear as to whether the framing story had to be altered by the translator to support those replacements. Chavey 03:24, 1 January 2018 (EST)

Here is a description of d'Aulnoy's 1697 collection, and here is a scan of a 1708 edition which seems,to be the same. There is no framing narrative. ----Vasha 04:41, 1 January 2018 (EST)

Cover image wiki page templates and help update

After this question in the help I got curious what was wrong and just learned that we have multiple templates for the cover image, depending on the number of cover artists, in the wiki. As always, you always learn :) However, I couldn't find anything in the help about this and therefore created Help:How_to_update_cover_artist_data and integrated it into the Help:How_to. This sounds like we probably need a cleanup report "Number of cover artists <–> cover image wiki template mismatches" or so if we want to capture cases where the wrong wiki template is used. Jens Hitspacebar 09:50, 27 December 2017 (EST)

Prometheus Award -- preliminary nominees

The Prometheus Award for Best Novel list has been recently (?) updated with information about each year's preliminary nominees. Looking for volunteers who would be interested in entering this information into the database. Ahasuerus 23:32, 29 December 2017 (EST)

Done. Most years already had them. Added the few that didn't have them. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:51, 30 December 2017 (EST)

Thanks! Ahasuerus 13:09, 30 December 2017 (EST)