User talk:JLaTondre/Archive 2020

John Bowring

your 16:25:09 rejection notice [North America eastern daylight saving time]: "changed the author record instead as this would have deleted the existing author record and lost all the bio data"

Be assured I would not have submitted such a request if there were data other than name in our record for Author #283115. I submitted name change as unstated preparation to add values to some other fields in the Bowring author record, which I had assembled. I supposed it would be easy to remove "Sir" at the early stage with all other fields empty. But no.

Probably Christian Stonecreek added those meagre data hastily, after rejecting my first request (14:26:54 at *My* Rejected Edits).

By the way, we now have "my" field values for Bowring, whom we have reknighted canonically. And I retire from touching him. (presumably created here by Rtrace at the time of 1823 publication note "Translated by John Bowring, according to the wikipedia article on him.")

Welcome back to your talk page, if not to ISFDB. --Pwendt|talk 11:26, 24 March 2020 (EDT)

It is irrelevant whether someone added the data after you made your change. It still had to be rejected due to how the ISFDB software works. That is just a fact of life with our collaborative editing. It can happen under a number of different situations. That said, if this edit was rejected once you should not have re-submitted it without discussion. It would have been better to discuss it with Stonecreek or at the Community Portal. Had I known there was disagreement, I would not have made the change. Re-submitting when a moderator has rejected due to an error is one thing. But when there is a difference of opinion, please discuss first. That will save some turmoil. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:31, 24 March 2020 (EDT)

Odd as it may seem to some of us being purely republicans, I do understand that Sir is (and was) to be considered as part of the legal name in England, so it'd be incorrect to delete this title. Stonecreek 13:45, 24 March 2020 (EDT)

Big Echo

Hi, just looking through the Recent Edits list, and I saw you've been doing a bunch of work on "issues" of these today.

Could I briefly divert your attention a recent item on my talk page re. this magazine? http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/index.php/User_talk:ErsatzCulture#Big_Echo.2C_No._12 I added a 2018 issue plus contents, as one of the articles was a BSFA award nominee. Bob approved my edit, but raised a few issues, in particular how I'd named the issue. I did respond with my thoughts on why that seemed like maybe not a good idea (if my limited understanding as a newbie, and as someone who'd never touched any magazine on ISFDB before), but he's not seen or had to respond as yet.

It looks to me like you're doing something slightly different again - having both the issue number and month in the pub title - so could you maybe advise re. the issue I added? Or better still, take it off my hands, as I don't really have any interest in magazines, but wanted to try to make a reasonable attempt at populating that issue whilst getting towards my real goal of getting the BSFA Award noms complete ;-)

Thanks ErsatzCulture 12:44, 28 March 2020 (EDT)

Yes, I'm going through the whole series (standardizing existing ones & adding new ones). I saw that post on your talk page & that Bob hadn't responded. That is what kicked this off. I was going to post a response there when I was done. I will go ahead and do that now. I'll post there so it keeps the discussion together for anyone else who sees that section. -- JLaTondre (talk) 12:57, 28 March 2020 (EDT)

The Path of Daggers

I wanted you to know that I deleted the content line that had "del." I replied to your message on my talk page, if you want to see my thought process on the matter. --AndonSage 09:18, 28 April 2020 (EDT)

The Story of the Last Trump

Hi. You verified the 2011 H. G. Wells Complete Short Story Omnibus P338206 containing "The Story of the Last Trump", pp. 730-42. (Stories and sequence evidently match the 1998 Hammond-edited Complete Short Stories of HGW.) Does the omnibus cite 1915 Boon by Reginald Wells as first publication of the story?

When you can, please compare the story with "The Lost Last Trump" by Reginald Bliss in 1915 Century Magazine, pp. 369-78 (no sections). And with Chapter X "The Story of the Last Trump" in Boon pp. 297-342, (sections 1-14). --Pwendt|talk 14:01, 17 May 2020 (EDT)

Sections 2-13 of the book chapter correspond to the US magazine text --with some different punctuation, spelling, and spacing; and many many capital letters not in the magazine. There is some difference in wording --eg, the long paragraph at end section 2, p299 in the book; or "you and me"/"you and I" at p329.

If the Omnibus is something you need to dig out, please hold it out. I will have a few other questions. Thanks. --Pwendt|talk 14:33, 17 May 2020 (EDT)

It will be awhile before I can unearth that one. -- JLaTondre (talk) 15:21, 17 May 2020 (EDT)

Unmerge - Merge vs. Import - Delete

In this submission you rejected my unmerge in favour of an import & removal (which you did for me, thank you. I try to remember to add Note to self:). I haven't been using this approach because of the precarious state it leaves the publication in between edits. Is there a flaw in my reasoning: If I submit the removal first it leaves a NOVEL with no content which may be disallowed or deleted. If I submit the import first, I will have to wait for it to be approved before submitting the removal or I end up in the first scenario. And if I do wait to submit, a NOVEL with two content novels will exist, which may be disallowed / deleted / revised / reported before I get around to the removal (given the workloads of moderators and my schedule, it might be days before I get back to it). ../Doug H 14:36, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Generally, either way works. If using the import / removal method, make sure to do the import first as you should never leave a pub without a container title. If there is going to be an extended period between edits, than, yes, I agree the unmerge / merge is better. However, even in that case, if it's days, you run the risk of someone merging it back into the original. In this particular case, import / removal was easier as the PG edition had the wrong title. The normal check for duplicates would not have matched the new unmerged short title with the longer correct title for that pub. Importing / removing was easier than having to do an an advanced title search and figuring out the right two to merge. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:32, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Thanks for the background. I suspect most of the moderators are aware of my Jules Verne mania and would be happy to steer clear for a few days. :-) ../Doug H 19:52, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Technically, Import and remove can be submitted in parallel - as they do not pick up the complete id list on submission so are not vulnerable to each other changing something. Merge needs to wait an approval of the unmerge but these two are independent. Annie 20:53, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Capitalization in English reminder

"from" here, "on" here should have been with small letters. I know you know usually - just noticed two very close to each other and decided to bug you after fixing them. :) Annie 18:00, 29 May 2020 (EDT)

Thanks. That's what I get for copy-n-pasting. I totally overlooked those... -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:02, 29 May 2020 (EDT)

Man Who Could Work Miracles

"Cancellation/Rejection Reason: edited existing record instead of cloning new record" [1]
Where is the existing record you edited? --Pwendt|talk 11:32, 8 June 2020 (EDT)

Your moderator note stated your were cloning the 2012 edition. However, you actually edited the 2012 edition instead. This would have replaced the 2012 edition instead of creating a new 2003 edition. You must have clicked "Edit This Pub" instead of "Clone This Pub". Happens occasionally since they are right next to each other. You need to resubmit with an actual clone. -- JLaTondre (talk) 19:34, 8 June 2020 (EDT)

Carolyn Gilman - propagation delay?

I see that you approved my 'Carolyn Gilman' -> 'Carolyn Ives Gilman' update, but when I look at the 'Ives' author page, I don't see the short by the 'non-Ives' version. However, I do see the alternate author linkage. Does it take a while for the stories to propagate in, or did I miss a step in my edit? --GlennMcG 15:31, 4 July 2020 (EDT)

Titles need to be manually varianted. It does not happen automatically. Open the Burning Bush title record, click "Make This Title a Variant" on the left menu, and the in Option 2, enter "Carolyn Ives Gilman" as the author and submit. I meant to do it after approving your alternate name submission, but was distracted. I will leave for you so you gain the experience. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2020 (EDT)

I wondered why some titles were editable. Done. Thanks! --GlennMcG 16:28, 4 July 2020 (EDT)

Night of the Saucers

Re this you approved recently. States ISBN: 009508086 (Bad format) - which I had a feeling might be the case as I wasn't sure it was actually an ISBN number I merely assumed. I don't really know what the number is. --Mavmaramis 19:26, 12 July 2020 (EDT)

Sorry, I meant to remove that. An ISBN would have to be 10 digits. Before ISBN, there was a 9 digit SBN that could be converted to a ISBN by prepending a zero. However, that gives a invalid number as well in this case. So not sure what that number is so best to leave for notes. -- JLaTondre (talk) 19:32, 12 July 2020 (EDT)

It's fine. I did put that speculation in the Moderator note and included it in the note. Another Mod has edited the entry so it's all good. --Mavmaramis 10:10, 13 July 2020 (EDT)

That was me, just late. ;-) -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:21, 13 July 2020 (EDT)

Legend of Paldevia

Did you do the variant step for my edit [2]? I attempted to add it as variant to the English 'Legend of Poldevia', but got an error about not allowing nested variants. And then noticed it was linked to the French version. --GlennMcG 20:34, 21 July 2020 (EDT)

Yes, after accepting the pub edit, I varianted the new title to the original French version. The software will not allow variants of variants so if a translation appears under two different titles, they are shown at the same "level". -- JLaTondre (talk) 22:22, 21 July 2020 (EDT)

Mars, Inc.: The Billionaires Club

You accepted the edit [3] for this, but I need a little clarification. The inner title didn't switch. I assume they should match. Add new new inner title, delete old, variant it? Also, I thought I had the 'THE' as lower case, trying to match the caps rules, but see it as upper. Maybe I only thought I did it. Or you changed it? I think it looks better capped, anyways. --GlennMcG 16:09, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

For the capitalization, we don't lowercase after a period or colon. We basically follow sentence case. For the subtitle, that's an odd one as there really isn't a standard. We will sometimes break them out as a separate title and sometimes keep them merged together under the non-subtitled version. I see you have this pending edit. Do you want to break it out separately? If so, it would probably be easier to do by unmerging the title record. Let me know if you want to break it out & I can do that. -- JLaTondre (talk) 16:46, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

I had thought that the inner and outer titles had to match for novels, but I'm not wedded to the idea. Please pick the most appropriate for this case. :) But, if I had wanted to change a novel's outer and inner titles (as one), what steps should I have taken (from the beginning)? --GlennMcG 17:18, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

I lean towards having them match and that's generally how we have them. But there are cases where we don't because others feel there is no need for separation. You will find that we have some things that we're pretty stringent on and some others that the community has different opinions and we live with the ambiguity. For how I would separate these, I find it easier to do it at the title level.

Go to the novel title record
Click "Unmerge Titles" on the left menu
Select your publication & submit
Once accepted, I believe it will create a new record with the name matching the pub (the software operates slightly differently in different scenarios, but believe this is one where it will autocreate the "right" title; if not it would need to be edited after)
Variant the new record to the original

There is nothing wrong doing it at pub level. As I said, having the record match the pub is more often the case than not. I can accept your pending edit or you can try the title approach if you want. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:25, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

Unmerged in title. --GlennMcG 18:33, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

Oh, and I was curious about steps before your first, as when I first discovered the publication I was PVing didn't match the name I saw on the title page. (and cover). --GlennMcG 19:29, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

Approved. Now there is the new Mars, Inc.: The Billionaire's Club which needs to be varianted to the existing Mars, Inc.. I'll leave that to you so you can do the whole thing. ;-) -- JLaTondre (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

Varianted --GlennMcG 21:49, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

Find Your Own True (minus series)

Begging forgiveness for [4] to [5]. I probably should have asked before, but .... --GlennMcG 00:35, 14 August 2020 (EDT)

No problem. Those were older records before the change in rules. It was fine to standardize. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:56, 14 August 2020 (EDT)

Editing a previously verified work.

Thanks for your reply to my question on Asimov on Astronomy. In verifying many of the books in the Magic Kingdom of Landover series, I came to book 5 Witches Brew. record 55041. The only PV just added the price in Canada. I intend to change the page count and contents as well as add some relevant info. Glance at any of the first 3 books in the series that I have just verified and you will see what I have in mind. Would this also require a cloning? I really want to give back since I have gotten so much benefit over the last few years. thanks Scifibones 20:56, 14 August 2020 (EDT)

We create separate records for editions / printings. If you have the same edition / printing, you would edit / verify the same record. If you have a different edition / printing, you edit / verify a different record. Identifying editions is pretty straight forward (publisher, ISBN, cover, etc.). Identifying printings is usually straight forward (printing statement or number line), but sometimes pubs don't have any printing information and we have to go by other information (price differences, etc.). In the case of Asimov on Astronomy, they were different printings so there needs to be different records. In the case of Witches Brew, you will need to determine if you have the same edition / printing as is currently listed in the database or not. If you have question on whether something is the same edition / printing, you can always ask. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:21, 15 August 2020 (EDT)

Different printings / different covers

Thank you for explaining. As luck would have, the message directly above also deals with different printings and helped me understand even better. It is important to edit the correct record, and now I will keep an eye on whether multiple printings are indicated. If I may, I have a closely related question regarding ebooks. Unlike hardcopy printings, they are even easier for the publisher to modify. Case in point, my Kindle edition of this title has a different cover from the one currently in ISDFB (both cover variants use the same artwork but different typography; both cover variants have been used on paperback editions in the same series). Should my Kindle edition then be entered as a separate edition with unknown date too? If not, how should the newer cover of the ebook be indicated? HugoReader 03:02, 3 September 2020 (EDT)

Spiritwalk

you rejected my variant-ing of Spiritwalk (edited, with just the bird) to the original (bird and creature). The reason was "not the same; one has person" -- that's why I variant-ed and not merged. it's the same image, just edited; thus a variant. I'm gonna try it again... Susan O'Fearna 12:04, 3 September 2020 (EDT)

And rejected again. Variants are for variant titles -- the same work under a different title. They are not for variations in the work itself. If the work itself has been changed, we either consider the changes minor and merge them or we leave them as two separate works. This is the same whether it is art, fiction, or non-fiction. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:01, 3 September 2020 (EDT)

ok Susan O'Fearna 18:19, 4 September 2020 (EDT)

Very Best of the Best: Dozois - TOC Question

Sorry to pester you, but I more help on one aspect of your earlier guidance on the "Very Best of the Best" TOC/content issue.

You said,

"We record the story title as per the title page. Sometimes the ToC and the title page differ, if so, we use the version on the title page and make a note about the version in the ToC. If the wrong title is used for the story, we would still use the title in the pub. However, it would need to be unmerged from the existing Mongoose and then varianted to Boojum with a title note. A pub note would also be a good thing. -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:21, 5 December 2020 (EST)"

Thanks for the guidance.

I would need to use unmerge on the "Mongoose" title record, to unmerge the database title record from "Very Best of the Best" to "Mongoose". This would still leave the title as "Mongoose" in the "Very Best of the Best", but would no longer be directly connected to the "Mongoose" title record, I assume. That part makes sense.

I am not at all sure what you mean by "varianted to Boojum". Are you saying that I need to go to "Mongoose" title and create a variant title to "Boojum"? If not that, what?

Adding title notes and pub notes all makes sense, to ensure that the ambiguity and lack of agreement between title and contents is clear. Dave888 12:56, 8 December 2020 (EST)

Sorry, have had little time lately. I responded at ISFDB:Help desk#Very Best of the Best: Dozois - TOC_Question. -- JLaTondre (talk) 20:18, 11 December 2020 (EST)

Questions.

Hello I want to ask two questions
1. this publication. It has an uncredited introdction. Possibly be Eco but not certain, How to enter as content.
2. this publication has an titled introduction by Ellison but split into three parts. Should I enter as the title as a whole or enter the individual parts ? Thanks. --Mavmaramis 12:23, 27 December 2020 (EST)

There is not a single right answer for these cases.

You have two options:
a) Do not enter the content & only add a pub note.
b) Enter the content as "untitled" by "uncredited" and add a pub note explaining it is an untitled introduction possibly by Eco.
Do the three parts have separate titles? If not, use one entry. If they do, your choice. Either works, just add a pub note explaining. I would personally base it on whether it seems likely that the parts could ever be published separately. If so, I would split. If not, I would leave as a single entry.

Hope that helps. -- JLaTondre (talk) 12:40, 27 December 2020 (EST)

The Introduction to the Eco work is titled "Introduction" only sdo I'll add it as that and append a note. It would seem highly unlikely that the three part introduction to "Watching" would ever be published seperately so I'll enter it under the overall title. Thank you for your guidance. --Mavmaramis 14:06, 27 December 2020 (EST)

Ah, I misunderstood the first question. Yes, title would be "Introduction (The Book of Legendary Lands)". -- JLaTondre (talk) 14:28, 27 December 2020 (EST)

Sun in Glory / Lackey

You rejected [6]. Are you saying it shouldn't be done, or I have a process/ordering issue? Change the pubs first? I thought the title change would ripple to the titles. --GlennMcG 14:03, 31 December 2020 (EST)

Title records and publication records have separate title fields. Changing one does not impact the other. The title record title should match the publication titles (there are some exceptions - magazines & some other odd ball cases). If you are saying the pub titles should change also, you should start with those and then change the title record. Since Marc Kupper is an active verifier, it would be best to coordinate with him first. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 15:15, 31 December 2020 (EST)